[gnasher]

The consensus seems to be that over 4C:
- 4S is natural, showing three-card support and perhaps not real clubs
- 4D is natural, showing a strong one-suiter and not real clubs

That seems reasonable, but it's not terribly satisfactory if you happen to have clubs and want to make a slam try. Would 4H promise a heart control? If so, what do you do when you don't have one?

[P_Marlowe]

gnasher, on Feb 1 2008, 04:04 AM, said:

The consensus seems to be that over 4C:
- 4S is natural, showing three-card support and perhaps not real clubs
- 4D is natural, showing a strong one-suiter and not real clubs

That seems reasonable, but it's not terribly satisfactory if you happen to have clubs and want to make a slam try. Would 4H promise a heart control? If so, what do you do when you don't have one?

If you dont have a clear bid, you need to
improvise.

Usually you will bid 4D, this bid shows a strong
suit, and if you happen to play 4D as one-suiter,
than partner is expected to make a cue bid on
the basis that diamonds are agreed.

And partner should be able to make at least
one cue bid, after all 4C is, compared to 5C,
a forward going bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Feb 1 2008, 10:33 AM, said:

oh and btw (warm+fuzzy moment) I really enjoy your posts and hope you continue to post a lot.

Thanks - warm glow duly received. It's nice to have found somewhere where the discussion is both of a good standard and free of personal attacks.

[dake50]

best EVA = Expert View After ? Yes?

[skjaeran]

gnasher, on Feb 1 2008, 10:04 AM, said:

The consensus seems to be that over 4C:
- 4S is natural, showing three-card support and perhaps not real clubs
- 4D is natural, showing a strong one-suiter and not real clubs

That seems reasonable, but it's not terribly satisfactory if you happen to have clubs and want to make a slam try. Would 4H promise a heart control? If so, what do you do when you don't have one?

In that context I'd say 4♥ should be some sort of last train - a strong raise to 5♣, not guaranteeing a control.

[whereagles]

Hannie, on Feb 1 2008, 12:45 AM, said:

1. Is this how you would have bid the hand too?

2. Is 4S clearly natural?

1. No. Sorry, but I hate fake jump shifts. Prefer either open 2♣ (eventhough that's death-penalty around here) or an under(re)bid of 3♦.

2. I think it CAN be natural, but it sure isn't CLEARLY natural (in my opinion, ofc).

[han]

whereagles, on Feb 1 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

1. No. Sorry, but I hate fake jump shifts. Prefer either open 2♣ (eventhough that's death-penalty around here) or an under(re)bid of 3♦.

I have sympathy for opening 2C, this is a very strong hand. I don't understand rebidding a non-forcing 3D with this, I think it is nuts.

[whereagles]

Hannie, on Feb 1 2008, 09:20 PM, said:

whereagles, on Feb 1 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

1. No. Sorry, but I hate fake jump shifts. Prefer either open 2♣ (eventhough that's death-penalty around here) or an under(re)bid of 3♦.

I have sympathy for opening 2C, this is a very strong hand. I don't understand rebidding a non-forcing 3D with this, I think it is nuts.

Well, what can you do? There are hands that are too strong for 1m-3m and too weak for a strong 2♣. Acol or SEF open those hands a strong 2, but in US bidding systems you're kinda screwed...

[han]

Yeah we Americans are screwed, that's why we lose at bridge.

[benlessard]

Quote

I'm very unfond (is that a word) of fake jumpshifts so I try to get anyone who I can convince to play some gadget that avoids the whole issue (and at hardly any cost too!).

The hand is a bit light for me to open 2♣, so your hand type is basically shoved under the carpet in anything close to "standard".

So now that you ask, this is probably how you bid the hand in standard. Lose 11.

If by some gadget your are reffering to 2Nt (artGF) you are going to bid that on more then 50% of all the GF hands.

Lets say
1D----1S
???

your forcing bids are

2H,3C,3H,4C,4D & maybe 2Nt

Most of the TOUGH GF hands will be based of a 3 card support for partner or hand unsuitable for a splinters.

3163,3361,3262 & many 7er carder.

The 2nd group is very long D.

The 3rd group is true strong 2 suiters

The 4th is balanced hand with lack of stoppers honnor concentration.

EASY hands like splinter or 64 hands with fit with partner are discarded.

So do you think it make more sense to use 2NT as catch all bids ?

[whereagles]

Hannie, on Feb 1 2008, 09:23 PM, said:

Yeah we Americans are screwed, that's why we lose at bridge.

look.. whatever. I was trying to have a serious conversation, but apparently you're not interested.

[han]

Don't take me too seriously please. Oh wait, nobody does anyway.

[whereagles]

well.. problem with the internet is that humor/sarcasm sometimes is hard to get through.. lol

[the hog]

I posted this before. You might be interested in looking at this gadget which we played. It is part of Strefa. The 2NT bid is always a gf and not necessarily balanced.

{Btw just re read some of these posts. I would love to put BLessard in a 4-2 fit at the 5 level after one of his lovely fake suit bids.}

1♦ 1♠
2N GF, no side suit (if long D, not necessarily balanced)
3C relay
3D 6+D, does not deny 3M
3M 3-cards, 5332
3oM singleton
3N 533-2M


1♦ 1M
2N 3D encouraging, D fit (3M = cue, 4D = minorwood)
3M 6+ suit
4M 6+ 1-loser suit, nothing special on the side
JS splinter for D

1♥ 1♠
2N Artificial GF with no side suit, maybe not balanced, maybe 4S-5H-2-2
3C Relay
3D short ¨, 6+H, maybe 3S
3H 6+H, maybe 3S
3S 5H-3ª-3-2
3N 2533 exactly
4m 20-21 4S-5H-2-2 cue-bid
4H 17-20 7+ very good H
4S 18-19 4S-5H-2-2

[jdonn]

The fake jump shift thing doesn't really bother me at all. All this stuff after 2NT rebids is surely nice, but I've never found any other way to handle 18-19 balanced that I can tolerate. The auctions after a fake jump shift are generally fine, notwithstanding the hand in the thread in which case rebidding 3♣ is in fact your best chance to find slam, as per Justin's posts.

[Fluffy]

Forget about artificial 2NT rebids, what's wrong with a natural 2NT rebid?, I think the disadvantages are far less than the ones from a 3♣ rebid.

[benlessard]

Quote

Btw just re read some of these posts. I would love to put BLessard in a 4-2 fit at the 5 level after one of his lovely fake suit bids.

The feeling i get from reading your post is that when when you play in a 4-2 fits its a bidding accident and you are probably going to lose 10-12 on the board. But i can tell you that when i play in a 4-2 fit its usually because its a better contract then a 3nt with a suit wide open and ive got some chance of winning 10-12 imps. I can assure you that my 4-2 fits contracts are quite different then your 4-2 fits contracts.

[cherdano]

Fluffy, on Feb 2 2008, 05:05 AM, said:

Forget about artificial 2NT rebids, what's wrong with a natural 2NT rebid?, I think the disadvantages are far less than the ones from a 3♣ rebid.

I really don't understand how it helps to sell AQx x AKQJxx ATx as a balanced hand after 1D 1S, even when your 2N rebid is GF.

[jdonn]

cherdano, on Feb 3 2008, 01:40 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Feb 2 2008, 05:05 AM, said:

Forget about artificial 2NT rebids, what's wrong with a natural 2NT rebid?, I think the disadvantages are far less than the ones from a 3♣ rebid.

I really don't understand how it helps to sell AQx x AKQJxx ATx as a balanced hand after 1D 1S, even when your 2N rebid is GF.

I agree. I mean if that's your (generic your, not cherdano-your) plan you might as well raise spades. Either partner has five spades, or he has at most three hearts, in either case it's hard to see wanting to play in notrump.