[el mister]

I'm a beginner, and looking to improve my acol game. I'm absorbing the important conventions, and wanted to ask about a (maybe) not so important one - the comic or Gardener NT. What do you think about this one - can it be a useful bid or is it outdated?

Just thinking about it in simple terms, a weak jump overcall seems to have more pre-emptive value. The comic NT (great name ) has a bit of misdirection to it, but wouldn't you have to alert it anyhow and say what it means?

One other thing that occurs to me is that it describes a situation that seems to come up a lot - a weak 2 holding after opps have opened the bidding; so you could probably use the convention quite frequently.

[mikeh]

I would strongly advocate against using this bid.

I would, instead, apply myself (and partner) to the more mundane, less exciting but infinitely more rewarding task of learning the nuances of ordinary bidding.

If you use comic nt against stronger players, you will lose steadily: oh, you will have some spectacular wins, but a lot of losses. Why? Because, when you hold the weak hand, there is a high likelihood that the opps will be able to make a strength-showing double, and then get about bidding their suits (or penalizing you) without the preemption that every other pair faced when your hand made a preemptive call. Give good players free bidding space and they will kill you on most hands.

If you use comic against less-experienced players, you risk alienating them. Your results will be more variable, because most beginners/intermediates won't know how to handle this convention. That may seem like fun, but it isn't helping your game improve and it detracts, needlessly in my view, from the opps' enjoyment of the game.

BTW, consider this: a useful test of the utility of a gadget is the extent to which it is used by the best players. Certainly, the comic nt was used by some of the world's best many years ago, but I know of no good pair that uses it currently, or in the last decade+.

[vuroth]

mikeh, on Jan 29 2008, 04:52 PM, said:

I would, instead, apply myself (and partner) to the more mundane, less exciting but infinitely more rewarding task of learning the nuances of ordinary bidding.

Less exciting??? You should see some of my basic system mistakes!

[helene_t]

The convention has gone out of fashion. Part of the reason is that overcaller's partner is badly placed when opener's partner raises.

As a beginner (and even when you have reached the level of the stronger half of the players at an average club) you will not benefit much from learning conventions other than the most important ones such as t/o doubles, Stayman, the 2♣ opening, maybe fourth suit forcing. Conventions can be great fun but in terms of improving beginners' and intermediate's game they are grossly overvalued.

[PassedOut]

helene_t, on Jan 29 2008, 06:27 PM, said:

Conventions can be great fun but in terms of improving beginners' and intermediate's game they are grossly overvalued.

True even for players with many years of experience!

I keep trying to talk one of my partners out of playing some conventions he often messes up (RKCB, for example) but he won't hear of it. We've already lost more because of those mistakes than we will regain - over the rest of our lives - from staying out of slams missing the trump king.

Just think about getting to normal good contracts as often as you can: 3NT, 4♥, and 4♠ especially.

[whereagles]

For the record, Meckwell used the comic 1NT when NV vs V.

[FrancesHinden]

everything mikeh says is true. it's not a useful convention.

but I would add, in very small typeface indeed, that I used to play it as a student because it was fun. I stopped playing it because it's not a very sound method. But you'll have some laughts with it (although as mike also says, this may depend a bit on the sort of people you are playing against - student bridge clubs, australians etc are likely to appreciate it more than some others I won't insult by naming)

[whereagles]

Well, the preemptive effect is considerably less than a jump overcall and there is a lot less pressure on 3rd seat to bid because he will have a 2nd shot at it. It does put a lower bound on 2-level overcalls, but those usually have one already.

It's playable, but not too useful unless if you restrict it to the minor suits. Then it's got more of a point because it lets you bid and preempt with hands you'd probably have to pass otherwise.

[Ronald_21]

Isn't the Gardener NT a Brown Sticker Convention (no known suit).

[helene_t]

Yes, it is a BSC. I don't understand what the EBU White Book says about this, though:

172.3 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments
Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments may not be played, unless
they are permitted at EBU Level 3

172.6 EBU Level 3 conventions
All methods permitted by EBU Level 3 may be used, whether categorised
as Brown Sticker or not.

[david_c]

helene_t, on Jan 30 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

Yes, it is a BSC. I don't understand what the EBU White Book says about this, though:

The EBU White Book is a good reference for many things, but not for rules about BSC: the EBU doesn't use the idea of BSC in its regulations at all. The one thing you found is there for historical reasons really. (There's a particular competition which was supposed to attract overseas players, and in order to accommodate them the EBU added things allowed by the WBF. None of it applies to any other EBU event.)

[pclayton]

Hi welcome to the game and I'm pleased to see you are looking at some fun ways to spice up your bidding.

Like the others, I would not recommend Gardner. However, I disagree that you need to stay away from all conventions and treatments that are non-standard. If you are serious, you will need to do a lot of studying and reading. If you want to throw in something like Gardner, go ahead. it will keep things fresh for you and keep you interested.

Instead, try a multi 2♦ for now. It will create a lot of 'action' for you.

[FrancesHinden]

helene_t, on Jan 30 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

Yes, it is a BSC. I don't understand what the EBU White Book says about this, though:

172.3 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments
Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments may not be played, unless
they are permitted at EBU Level 3

172.6 EBU Level 3 conventions
All methods permitted by EBU Level 3 may be used, whether categorised
as Brown Sticker or not.

This is all getting a bit off-topic.

The (not desperately well-made) point is that the EBU permit some methods at so-called Level 3 which the WBF would call brown sticker. Those extracts from the white book are regulations referring to specific events, not play in the EBU in general.

For general EBU events, there is no concept of a BSC. You can play something if it's on the list of permitted agreements, and you can't play it if is isn't.

The multi is a BSC, but is allowed at EBU level 3.
The comic NT is a BSC, but is certainly allowed at level 4 (I can't remember if it is allowed at level 3).

[helene_t]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 30 2008, 06:37 PM, said:

The multi is a BSC, but is allowed at EBU level 3.

Actually, the multi 2♦ (or 2♣, not that I have ever encountered that one) are exempted from the WBF BSC criterion as well. You can play it wherever the rules are limited to "HUM and BSC not allowed".

[whereagles]

just a note to see we're in focus:

Gardener 1NT = either bal 15-17 or weak 2 in any suit
Comic 1NT = either bal 15-17 or weak 2 in a MINOR

That right? If so, my comments above referred to the GARDENER variant

[rbforster]

If you're looking for a better method along the lines of the Comic NT, you should consider 1NT for Takeout. This is part of "Overcall Structure", but for this you basically just switch the meanings of your X and 1NT overcalls. With 1NT for takeout, you get in the action with weaker hands but with good shape more than you can with regular takeout doubles. For example, we play 1NT for takeout as about 8-15 with the low end depending somewhat on the colors/shape.