[KungFuChkn]

Hi all. This could fit several place, but I think the B/I might be the best.

Simple question: In your favorite system, assume a GF auction that has established a major suit fit. You have extras and want to make a move towards slam.

Do you:
- cuebid Aces first?
- cuebid A and Ks? (Italian style)
- eschew cuebidding altogether and just bid 7NT like a man?

What, in your opinion, is expert standard nowadays and why?


Background - Was playing with a pickup "advanced +" pard and cuebid a suit in which I had Kx.* Partner lit up afterwards, insisting that "no onne bids like THAT". He articulately included the appropriate number of ?????s and !!!!!s to make his point.

I was thinking that Italian style cuebidding was just about standard. Thoughts?

*bowing respectfully*, KFC


* amusing part? He took a RKC call and still press to grand off an ace.

[kenrexford]

If a person cannot follow RKCB responses, how can you expect them to understand cuebidding? LOL

[barmar]

I think most experts use Italian style cue bidding. But when you play with a pickup partner, it's generally best to keep things as simple as possible, and go with the more traditional style. Especially if he's not an expert (which you can generally tell because his self-rating will be "Expert").

[mcphee]

While taking a stand to appreciate if you should cue a K prior to an A makes sense to many, not everyone is in this group. Thoe that are not could easily miss a cold slam when the partnership has Kx opposite xx and no one cue bid the suit. So to me it makes perfect logical sense to do so. Should a player launch into key card simply because his partner has indicated they have extra values from a reverse and they hold 2 small cards in a suit they can easily reach a slam that has an appropriate number of aces and kings, except they are off an AK in a suit on lead or a lead found. How much sense that makes is best explained by the player who vaulted into key card. Duh!

[pclayton]

Italian is standard with experts, Aces is what they teach beginners I think.

[lexlogan]

I cuebid Kings, but only when the hand contains a keycard I can't conveniently cuebid. That would include the Ace or King of trumps, or the Ace of a suit partner has already cue-bid (indicating he has the King of that suit along with a trump key.)

[KungFuChkn]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I appreciate the help.

I should note that I really didn't intend to bash this person. Just wanted to know, as someone learning, whether or not I was completely off-base.

Take care, KFC

[PedroG]

Hi All,

I understand the concept of "Italian cuebids", u should cue first and second round control. It would be helpful if someone could make some notes on it

I have a question about them, would it make any difference to be cuebiding above or below game level?

--
Pedro Gil

[Codo]

PedroG, on Jan 25 2008, 07:10 PM, said:

Hi All,

I understand the concept of "Italian cuebids", u should cue first and second round control. It would be helpful if someone could make some notes on it

I have a question about them, would it make any difference to be cuebiding above or below game level?

--
Pedro Gil

Normally you stat cuebidding after three of the agreed trump suit. So After 1 Heart - 3Heart 3 Spade is the first possible cuebid.
The old school bid their first round controls first.

The Italian school bids the cheapest control first.

So after
1 ♥ 3 ♥ 4 ♣ shows:I have a first or second round control in Clubs.
I have no spade control
I am interessted in Slam opposite the values you promised.
I cannot blast into RCKB because my hand is too weak and/or I miss a control (Here at least in Spades)

If one of this three sentences is false, you have no 4 Club bid.

The next bid from Partner is: 4 Heart: I don´t have spade control, so no slam-
4 Diamonds: I have spade control and a diamond control. (There is a big school who thinks that it is better to have this bid asking for a control in Diamond, but with a pick up pd showing is surely standard.)
4 Spade: I control Spades but no diamonds
4NT RCKB

To your question: If you had no opportunity to show a control at a lower level, bids at the 5. level shows normaly first round controls. If you had shown a control in this suit before and rebids this suit again it shows at least first round control, I believe the majority would take it as first AND second round control. (F.E. AK).

If you denied a control in a suit already, you maybe show third round control at the five level now, but I cannot remeber that this ever happend IRL to me.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Italian is standard with experts, Aces is what they teach beginners I think.

I've never been taught anything other than the "Italian" style. I don't know about the other method but it seems to me that it is not very useful if you also have something called Blackwood in your repertoire.

[ArcLight]

While Italian Style may be standard with true experts there is no way you should expect it from most self-rated BBO Advanced or Expert players. When I play in pick up games with "Advanced" players I am terrified when cue bidding because of all the frequent disasters I've seen. Even Quantitavive NT is frequently misinterpreted as Blackwood.

The majority of "Advanced" BBO players are not expert cue bidders.

And Italian style cue bidding requires some judgement as well.
Its not always helpful cue bidding a stiff in pards 5 card suit, he may think you have the A or K and assume he has 4 winners.

I think to use Italian style cue bisisng effectively one needs a fair amount of practice.


>- eschew cuebidding altogether and just bid 7NT like a man?

Only when pard has to declare, or in an Indy

When dummy ges down you can say "I bid 7 because there ought to be some kind of squeeze". When pard goes down you can tell him he should read "Adventures in Card Play" to improve his declarer play technique

[Codo]

I never meet anybody who cuebids first round controls first, so I think that you should use Italian style with anybody. But maybe this is more a geographical issue? Here Italian style is pretty standard for any lol in any club I know.

[jtfanclub]

Codo, on Jan 25 2008, 10:08 AM, said:

I never meet anybody who cuebids first round controls first, so I think that you should use Italian style with anybody. But maybe this is more a geographical issue? Here Italian style is pretty standard for any lol in any club I know.

Huh. For me, it depends on level. I'll cuebid an ace at the 3 level and skip a king to cue it at the 4 level. If we don't have the space to cue aces and kings, then I go Italian by necessity.

But then, you've never met me, right?

[HeavyDluxe]

ArcLight, on Jan 25 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

>- eschew cuebidding altogether and just bid 7NT like a man?

When dummy ges down you can say "I bid 7 because there ought to be some kind of squeeze". When pard goes down you can tell him he should read "Adventures in Card Play" to improve his declarer play technique

I assume everyone has heard the joke about the bridge expert and the client.

Expert (who opened 1NT) slaps down the 7S card and adds "Should be good on a finesse."

Client mulls it over an then calmly places the 7NT on the table. "Good, then you find it."

[skjaeran]

Cuebidding style is both a geographical and an age issue.

I don't think you'll find any player in Norway cuebidding aces first. If you go 30+ years back in time you might possibly have found some from that school.

I never learned anything other than Italian style cuebids nearly 35 years ago, and can't remember seeing aces first at all when I started playing tournaments 30 years ago.

[ArcLight]

HeavyDluxe, on Jan 25 2008, 10:34 AM, said:

ArcLight, on Jan 25 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

>- eschew cuebidding altogether and just bid 7NT like a man?

When dummy ges down you can say "I bid 7 because there ought to be some kind of squeeze".  When pard goes down you can tell him he should read "Adventures in Card Play" to improve his declarer play technique 

I assume everyone has heard the joke about the bridge expert and the client.

Expert (who opened 1NT) slaps down the 7S card and adds "Should be good on a finesse."

Client mulls it over an then calmly places the 7NT on the table. "Good, then you find it."

Actually, I got this from Mike Lawrences True bridge Humor. Peter Pender (an expert) was playing with a client and bid 7S (I think) and remarked "There ought to be a squeeze in there". Pender had bid Blackwood along the way, so the client bid 7NT saying "Then YOU find the squeeze"

[ArcLight]

For those who use Italian cue bidding, do you also use Turbo? Or both Turbo and RKCBW, and if so, in what circumstances?

[skjaeran]

ArcLight, on Jan 25 2008, 08:20 PM, said:

For those who use Italian cue bidding, do you also use Turbo? Or both Turbo and RKCBW, and if so, in what circumstances?

I don't use Turbo, only RKCB.

1984-1991 I played with different partners Italian style cuebids and a modified version of Culbertson's 4-5NT convention, no Blackwood. Basically, making x cuebids promised x keycards, 4NT showed 3 keycards and 5NT guaranteed that the partnership posessed all 5 keycards and the trump queen. (There were modifications for strong/weak hands of course.)

[HeavyDluxe]

ArcLight, on Jan 25 2008, 02:19 PM, said:

ArcLight, on Jan 25 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

Actually, I got this from Mike Lawrences True bridge Humor.  Peter Pender (an expert) was playing with a client and bid 7S (I think) and remarked "There ought to be a squeeze in there".  Pender had bid Blackwood along the way, so the client bid 7NT saying "Then YOU find the squeeze."

Sooooo classic.

Thanks for the official citation!