[PassedOut]

Starting in 2002, the Bush administration began its propaganda push to convince Americans to support a preemptive attack on Iraq. None of us heard all of the false statements made, but all of us heard quite a few.

Now The Center for Public Integrity has developed a searchable database to make it easy for all of us to review the complete record of the false statements made during the administration's propaganda effort: Orchestrated Deception on the Path to War. The content is fascinating.

I confess that I did not believe (at that time) that a US president would launch a preemptive war under false pretenses. I expected to see evidence that Iraq was indeed threatening our country with "weapons of mass destruction." When Colin Powell addressed the UN and failed to produce evidence that would convince any but the most gullible among us, I began to feel very uneasy.

Still, I figured that there must be unimpeachable evidence of a real threat: our government could not provide it in a public forum because doing so would reveal secret methods and sources. Some of the false statements in this new database were clearly designed to create that very impression.

I loathe liars. Once someone lies to me, I never trust that person again. But, before this, I've never known of a whole organization of bald-face liars. And I'll never be so trusting again.

[Winstonm]

Now that your eyes have opened, you might be willing to rethink this:

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

This is not a "whacko" site - it is a serious edit: academic website.

[kenberg]

I haven't read it all and I doubt I will, but I started browsing. Here is some stuff on the aluminum tubes:

"In April 2001, however, the Energy Department had concluded that, "while the gas centrifuge application cannot be ruled out, we assess that the procurement activity more likely supports a different application, such as conventional ordnance production." During the preparation of the September 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, the Energy Department and the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research stated their belief that Iraq intended to use the tubes in a conventional rocket program, but the Central Intelligence Agency's contrary view prevailed."

Imo, this shows disagreement and uncertainty. Being wrong is not the same as lying. I am absolutely no fan of GWB, and I don't doubt one can find statements about the war that qualify as lies, but I see the real tragedy here as one of misjudgment. I very much doubt that Bush would have taken us into this if he had had any idea of how it was going to go. The war has greatly weakened out country and devastated his presidency.

If you think back to the 2000 election, you just had to listen to the guy to know he was clueless. Not stupid, just not someone who had ever given much thought to matters he would have to face as president. "Bring it on" was of course a really bad idea but the critical problem was that he really thought we could handle any insurgency easily. No one says bring it on if he has any idea that it will be the sort of devastation that has transpired.

I'm not claiming the man is incapable of telling a lie. Not at all. But the person he fools most is himself. With tragic results for everyone else.

[Winstonm]

I read through the website and over and over again one thought emerged - this has all the earmarks of a Dick Cheney operation. I bet Bush never had a clue.

[Al_U_Card]

PassedOut, on Jan 23 2008, 07:18 PM, said:

I confess that I did not believe (at that time) that a US president would launch a preemptive war under false pretenses.

I've never known of a whole organization of bald-face liars. And I'll never be so trusting again.

Congrats on waking up to reality. Remember the Maine, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin? And the list goes on.......

I agree about the whole rotten bunch. They "lie" believing that it is for the greater good....they may just not be clear on the sum of the parts......mostly body.....

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on Jan 23 2008, 07:57 PM, said:

Being wrong is not the same as lying.

That's true, although many of the false statements were made with such assurance that, if you or I were to state something in the same manner, our statement could be trusted.

Many other statements, though, were unambiguously lies:

Donald Rumsfeld, on March 30, 2003, said:

We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat.

[mike777]

I will just repeat for the umpteenth time what Bob Novak talked about just before the vote to go to war.

To paraphrase:

Everyone seems to agree that there is a ton of evidence of WMD in Iraq. I have not seen it. Just show it to us. Release the information. Until then vote NO.

[kenberg]

Winstonm, on Jan 23 2008, 07:50 PM, said:

Now that your eyes have opened, you might be willing to rethink this:

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

This is not a "whacko" site - it is a serious scientific website.

In an article about the linkage between 9/11 and the JFK assassination we find:
>
There were scattered indications that a few people had advance knowledge of the
Kennedy assassination, a fact hard to reconcile with the Warren Commission conclusion
that Oswald, a disgruntled loner, acted on his own. The most significant case was that of
a Southern racist and activist, Joseph Milteer, who correctly predicted to a Miami police
informant, that Kennedy would be shot "from an office building with a high-powered
rifle."
>

Let us take their word for it that this is the most significant case that they have. A couple of days after 9/11, someone brought to me a book wherein Nostradamus clearly predicted the planes flying into the Twin Towers. Let's see. Should I go for my information to a Southern racist and activist in Miami or to Nostradamus? Got a coin I can flip?

[Al_U_Card]

Government shenanigans notwithstanding, the Mossad/mob/cuban etc. connections that had money and power considerations and that took umbrage at JFK and his wanton unreliability in paying attention to their wants......he was a rich kid after all.

His "visit" to Dallas at the Trade-mart was "commercial" unlike his visits to Houston and Austin which were political functions. The "standing down" of the Sercret Servic agents prior to the turn into Dealey plaza. The lack of security precautions taken. Watching the Zapruder film (Abe Zapruder was an associate of the owner of the Trade-mart btw...) you can see the shots come from behind and above as well as from in front and ground level. The supposition being a hit-team was set up so that the kill zone allowed them to triangulate on the target to ensure success.

Google is a mighty tool for information gathering.....your judgement and ability to discern will provide you with the perspective to determine how you see the event.

Too many questions that don't have satisfactory answers. Too many inconsistencies. Too many wrongs.

[PassedOut]

Al_U_Card, on Jan 24 2008, 01:55 PM, said:

Too many questions that don't have satisfactory answers. Too many inconsistencies. Too many wrongs.

One problem I have with most conspiracy theories is that they presuppose that monstrous actions -- involving many people -- can be kept secret forever. In my experience, that is quite unlikely.

[Al_U_Card]

Understood. One of the problems is our mentality that we can't do anything about it.....apathy and lack of actionable knowledge.

What is out there now is hardly being kept secret. If you need an insider to blow a whistle....you saw what happened to Gonsales and Libby etc. Nothing.

The U.S. is the current ascendent society. It is about to be eclipsed by the Chinese. Decadent societies inevitably squander their resources and become embroiled in futile and often internecine warfare to divide up the spoils that remain.

Sadly this has been repeated throughout our history so it is likely that it will continue apace...

[Al_U_Card]

My all time fave Dealey plaza video bit is the scene where the motorcycle cop gets off his bike and appears to look into the sewer entry as if he had seen something there.....then because people are going up the grassy knoll, he follows them up.

They say that there were shooters in the grassy knoll behind the fence, in the sewer and in the Trade-mart building as well as in the school book depository.

[jtfanclub]

Proof that 9/11 was a plot....

http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/reco...343-party-music

These rappers knew what was going to happen months in advance!

[Winstonm]

Quote

Let us take their word for it that this is the most significant case that they have.

I don't think your statement reflects the purpose of the article - it is not that "he has", af if he were claiming this one quote proved the event. He used it as an example, with this one example being the most precise in nature.

The thrust of the article, which you seem to find objectionable, is that large, violent events that have occured in the U.S. have had similarities.

For me, I don't like his argument much and don't care much for the conclusions.

Still, the ideas were presented in an academic way and are open to be rebutted in the same manner by peer review.

Also, partly my fault for misdescribing the site as "scientific" - although there is a good bit of science, it is better descrribed as "adademic", and I have edited above to correct that mislabeling.

[kenberg]

The sentence was: "The most significant case was that of
a Southern racist and activist, Joseph Milteer, who correctly predicted to a Miami police
informant, that Kennedy would be shot "from an office building with a high-powered
rifle.""

I'm not one of those people who jumps on phrasing. Maybe he didn't really mean that this was their strongest argument. However, the next point is that both at the time of the Kennedy Assassination and on 9/11 a significant number of Cabinet members were out of the country. So perhaps his Miami racist is his strongest argument. I certainly don't think much of the "Dean Rusk was out of the country" argument.

At any rate, I recall the days when people I knew were running around the country conducting their own investigations because, as they put it, there were all these issues that had not been answered to their own satisfaction. I am unsure if they ever became satisfied. I was a poor grad student w/o funds to conduct my investigation.

If indeed there was a conspiracy, my vote goes to the mob. As I understand it, without the graveyard Chicago vote, given at the request of Kennedy's father, Nixon would have won (he had the graveyard southern Illinois vote wrapped up). After the election JFK unleashed his brother on Hoffa. The mob takes such matters seriously. Investigations are to be expected, but a favor is a favor. I regard this as a far more serious point then any fantasy some guy in Miami had. As to likelihood, I would say I regard the mob killing Kennedy and Extra Sensory Perception as both possible. ESP seems to me considerably more likely and I don't believe that either, but both are, or seem to me to be, possible.

I think it's best I don't comment further since I know people really believe in this, I really don't (and that's an understatement), and I don't plan to take the time to delve into it. I will leave it to those who are involved in the effort.

Ken

[Al_U_Card]

Think mob deals, double crosses, havana niteclubs, Joseph P. and his tendencies....JFK and HIS tendencies, Meyer Lansky, disgruntled Cubans, French connection heroin money laundering, official Kennedy policy towards the middle east, JFK's position on nuclear proliferation and Israel getting the bomb and armaments, the ADL and the NAACP and federal money going for anti-segregation activity etc. etc. etc.......so many enemies....so much in common.

[Winstonm]

Ken,

Concerning that one article, I wasn't impressed with it. I think some of the logic was faulty. Unfortunate, as sloppy work such as this tends to demean an otherwise fine website that attempts to present reasonable questions about the validity of the NIST report and 9-11 commission's findings.

Overall, though, the site is good and there are some excellent research papers there to be had. The ones on fall times of the collapses come to mind in this regard.

[kenberg]

Winstonm, on Jan 24 2008, 10:35 PM, said:

Ken,

Concerning that one article, I wasn't impressed with it. I think some of the logic was faulty. Unfortunate, as sloppy work such as this tends to demean an otherwise fine website that attempts to present reasonable questions about the validity of the NIST report and 9-11 commission's findings.

Overall, though, the site is good and there are some excellent research papers there to be had. The ones on fall times of the collapses come to mind in this regard.

A fair point. I picked the article more or less at random and I'll try to look at some of the others. Despite my "retired" status I am about to teach a couple of courses and need to get myself prepared. So it will be later, not sooner.