[gwnn]

Scoring: IMP

---

          1♣
p-p-X-p
1♠-p-2♠-p
3♥-p-4♠ end

[matmat]

is there a question here?

[ArtK78]

Must be able to pull trump, make a club trick, knock out the ♦A and then endplay LHO with a singleton ♥A which he never got out of the way so that you get a ruff-sluff to get rid of your heart loser.

Or some variant of that.

Barring a very peculiar lie of the cards, this hand always goes down on normal defense. And it always go down if the opps just cash their aces at tricks one, two and three and get out.

[gwnn]

the question would be "who's to blame for this mess"

[ArtK78]

South, primarily.

If I understand the auction correctly, North balanced on the strong hand. South bid 1♠, and North raised. The question is, what is the meaning of North's raise? If the double were in direct seat, the classic definition of a raise after making a takeout double is about a King more than a minimum takeout double. Here, where it is a balancing double, which has a lower minimum than a direct seat double, the strength of the raise should be less - confirming full values for a takeout double and invitational on a near opening. Given that, South should pass 2♠. South has nothing close to a near opening bid.

By the way, I prefer a different interpretation of a raise after a takeout double. I suggest that a raise is mandatory with 4 cards in the bid major. With extras, one must find another bid - either a double raise or a cue bid. With a normal strength takeout double and only 3 card support, one passes. This makes it more difficult for the opponents to get into the auction when you have an 8 card fit and also clarifies the degree of your fit if your side needs to compete later in the auction.

[rbforster]

As for blame, I dislike the 3♥ call by South most, as some sort of game try for spades. Not only does he have no values in the suit (I'd much prefer 3♦ if one wanted to invite), but South has a poor 8 count not worth an invite. A random bad 8 count is certainly no more than North would expect when balancing, given West has shown a very weak hand by passing. If North wants to make a move for game opposite a hand this weak he needs to do more than just raise to 2♠. After all, South could have a 14 count too.

[655321]

gwnn, on Jan 19 2008, 02:12 PM, said:

the question would be "who's to blame for this mess"

Obviously South.

He had an easy pass, but instead chose to bid.
Not only did he choose to bid, but he bid his 3 small.
Why? How can partner judge how useful his ♥ cards are?

[matmat]

warning, thread hijack!

you hold

Jxxx
Axx
KT9
Kxx

RHO opens 1♣, you don't find a call, LHO pases, p balances with a double, pass to you.
what is your call?

same auction, but
Txxx
Axx
K9
KTxx

how about
Jxxx
AQx
KT9
Txx

[han]

Agree that south is to blame.

[Fluffy]

Players had different criterium towards what a reopening double or a jump respone to it should have.

IMO it is both wrong to bid 3♥ and to accept the invitation with a super minimum.

[Free]

gwnn, on Jan 19 2008, 08:12 PM, said:

the question would be "who's to blame for this mess"

South, he's nuts

[gwnn]

ok, so what does 1♠ promise and what does 2♠ promise? i'm just wondering

[MFA]

Fluffy, on Jan 19 2008, 08:14 PM, said:

Players had different criterium towards what a reopening double or a jump respone to it should have.

IMO it is both wrong to bid 3♥ and to accept the invitation with a super minimum.

I agree with this.

[han]

gwnn, on Jan 20 2008, 06:07 AM, said:

ok, so what does 1♠ promise and what does 2♠ promise? i'm just wondering

With 4 spades 1S could be up to about an 11-count. 2S shows mild game interest, so that seems right with this hand.

If it wasn't a balancing double then south should try for game but here I think south has a clear pass. I'm not going to argue with north's 4S, as it is not clear exactly how much weaker north could be. What is clear is that partner is making a gametry with poor trumps.