[TimG]

jtfanclub, on Jan 14 2008, 09:13 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jan 14 2008, 08:06 PM, said:

JT. to the best of my knowledge, and I may well be wrong, the ACBL has NOT outlawed psychic bids. So for you to state that Richard claimed he might cheat* is a very long bow indeed.

Some psyches are allowed, some psyches are not.

No matter how carefully he parsed it in this post, he was threatening to psyche repeatedly just to piss the opponents off, and I feel confident that's how they heard it.

A threat to psyche is often far more effective than an actual psyche. And, if an opponents knows I have psyched from time to time and suggested to me that this means I am a cheat, I am more likely than ever to engage in a little gamesmanship.

[matmat]

Quote

If Richard knew that what he was threatening to do was wrong, then he should expect the lecture, and not take it out on the TD who was just doing his job.  If Richard did not know that what he was threatening to do was wrong, then maybe he should have listened to the lecture instead of trying to tell the TD how to do his job. 

I thought everybody knew that.

the threat of psyching is not equivalent to the act of psyching, especially when opps try to get under your skin by tacitly implying that you are a cheat for even entertaining the notion of psyching. In fact, wouldn't there be a ZT ruling here?
opp A: "so richard, do you still psych a lot"
opp B: "I think psyching is cheating"

conclusion: "richard, do you still cheat a lot?"

btw, I expect that he was playing to win, and so whatever psychs would have been perpetrated (had they been) would have been meant to improve his teams' score

m

[PassedOut]

jtfanclub, on Jan 14 2008, 09:13 PM, said:

Once, when I was considering what to lead, my partner sneezed. I then said "Let's see, sneeze is hearts, right?" and led a heart. We all had a good chuckle.

I used to say things like that once in awhile, but learned that some folks did not appeciate the humor...

[the hog]

"Once, when I was considering what to lead, my partner sneezed. I then said "Let's see, sneeze is hearts, right?" and led a heart. We all had a good chuckle. If the TD had lectured me after the round that signals were illegal and cheating wasn't a joking matter, I'd have rolled my eyes a bit but I wouldn't have been offended or claimed that he didn't know how to do his job. You say something goofy like that, you open yourself up to lectures.

I thought everybody knew that. "

JT a tournament director is not God. It is clear that this one accepted the opponents statements and then refused to do his job by not looking at the boards in question. (Btw don't you have pre set hands in events in the States?) In any case, it would not have been over onerous to look up the boards rather than make the gratuitous comment that he was not there to give bidding lessons.

[pokerbids]

I find it amazing in this thread that there is any support for the behavior of the original poster. He started gloating from line one. He didn’t just beat his opps – In the round under question he “completely destroyed opps” –He calls his opponent “incompetent” next round he “squashed” the top seeds then he started lecturing the director implying that forget any issue his results speak for themselves. Further he told director not to “coddle such idiots”. When the opps exercised their rights and told the director they “whined”. Even the captain of his team in one of the early posts corrected the gross inaccuracies on reporting the directors behavior. Then in the next round he cant be “bothered” to meet his opps even though he is confident of “taking them” but doesn’t want to “waste” an afternoon doing so.

I don’t know if there is a law against gloating (probably not) but certainly I take a moral stand against gloating and other negative behavior attributes that this poster obviously takes pride in and then saying it is the ACBL that is in a sad state. What is wrong if opps report your behavior and actions to the director. Does one have to cry over it. There was no penalty imposed no result was changed and a mere warning (totally justified in my view was given). The director was called, he evaluated the issues and he ruled. Poster is so horrified that someone dares to do this he comes and if you ask me starts “whining” in front of this forum. Read the original post carefully and then you tell me whether you would have fun with an opp like him. This game is social to a considerable extent. Sure it depends upon skill and upon a competitive element but there is a social side to it and players don’t like meeting an “unguided missile” when it comes to etiquette. A lesson I learned early in life – Don’t skirt the boundaries of good behavior and expect to leave without a reprimand. The tone of the original post itself calls the behavior part into question. This game is more than merely applying the laws it’s a game of decent human behavior and in my opinion the poster seems to have walked perilously close to the line. I didn’t call the opp an “ignorant lard ass” he goes on to say– well good but do you think not calling him that and implying that he is that in this post is of relevance to the issue. It speaks volumes about your behavior though. Heaven knows what else you “didn’t” tell him!!

[hrothgar]

pokerbids, on Jan 15 2008, 08:34 AM, said:

I find it amazing in this thread that there is any support for the behavior of the original poster. He started gloating from line one.

For what its worth, I agree with some of your core points.

The original posting comes across as boorish.
It's uncalled for and not particular relevant to the core discussion.

So be it... All that I can do is note that I was on an adrenaline high as well as being seriously pissed.

[pokerbids]

Dear Mr. Hrothgar,

I cannot help but salute your latest post. It isnt often that I feel like a clot and perhaps inadvertently I poked my nose in here - But simply from your latest post I am glad I did so. Many times online we say and do things in the "heat of the moment" led partly by the fact that is a bit annoymous. It is, as you said both a minor point and done with an adrenaline rush. I must confess my posts were made in an abnormal heated moment also and I did myself and you an injustice by picking at those phrase that irritated me. By posting, as you did now, I can only applaud your sentiments. Truly there arent many posters who would bother to do so. I see that there were rights and wrongs on both sides and now out of the immediate heat of the moment both of us are calmer and speaking for myself I feel a bit foolish. Such is life - even though I dont know you it would be both an honour and a privilage to meet someone who has the courage and self confidence to make a post as you did. May I be allowed to retract and apologise for some of the out of context remarks I may have added.

With much more respect and a feeling that all is not lost in the human race! I am proud to have encountered a bridge player and a gentleman as yourself

regards

[bid_em_up]

The_Hog, on Jan 14 2008, 11:20 PM, said:

(Btw don't you have pre set hands in events in the States?)

At the club level, many games are shuffle & play, and others may have predealt hands along with hand records, this is usually dependent on the size of the club and the director.

Sectional Level and higher tournaments will have predealt hands for (almost) all pairs games.

Swiss teams and K/O's are usually shuffle & play at the Sectional, Regional, and even National levels. It is only when you get into the more "elite" team events that the boards are duplicated (or at least, that has been my experience), and even in those, the early round robins may still be shuffle & play.

[AlexOgan]

hrothgar, on Jan 13 2008, 08:13 PM, said:

With luck, the last team might end up withdrawing before the final round. (I'm quite sure that we can take them, but I'd prefer not to actually have to waste an afternoon doing so)

If they withdraw, will you just win by default, or will the team that lost to them in the semis get a shot?

[keylime]

I gotta admit - hearing this warms the heart. Always good to give a beatdown to those that are rulemongers. Next time, win by 70 will ya?

[pclayton]

So what happened in the final?

[hrothgar]

pclayton, on Jan 15 2008, 08:23 PM, said:

So what happened in the final?

No Clue... I'll tell you once it gets played out.

The Conditions of Contest in District 25 are somewhat dubious

The GNT event takes place over the course of 1 weekend.

Flight C produces an actual winner
The SuperFlight and Flight's A and B reduce to two teams.

Said teams are supposed to schedule a final round on their own.

I have no idea what happens if the two teams can't agree to a date/time...

I have no idea whether the event needs to be run at an ACBL tournament with a real director.

I don't even know if we need to play the match out. For all I know, we can just agree to flip a coin and the winner goes to Vegas

I know that one of the members of the other team lives in Boston, but is temporarily working out of Chicago. I expect that we'll schedule the final match in such a way as to minimize his travel costs, which might mean pushing the match out 3 weeks.

[pclayton]

hrothgar, on Jan 15 2008, 09:46 AM, said:

pclayton, on Jan 15 2008, 08:23 PM, said:

So what happened in the final?

No Clue... I'll tell you once it gets played out.

The Conditions of Contest in District 25 are somewhat dubious

The GNT event takes place over the course of 1 weekend.

Flight C produces an actual winner
The SuperFlight and Flight's A and B reduce to two teams.

Said teams are supposed to schedule a final round on their own.

I have no idea what happens if the two teams can't agree to a date/time...

I have no idea whether the event needs to be run at an ACBL tournament with a real director.

I don't even know if we need to play the match out. For all I know, we can just agree to flip a coin and the winner goes to Vegas

I know that one of the members of the other team lives in Boston, but is temporarily working out of Chicago. I expect that we'll schedule the final match in such a way as to minimize his travel costs, which might mean pushing the match out 3 weeks.

This is incredible.

I can't believe an event would reduce the field to two teams and then reconvene for a final somewhere else.

Of course, our GNT final is held on Easter Sunday (which is also sometimes Passover, I think), which creates some serious problems for me and others. So personally, I'd love it if we had the final at another time and place.

[pclayton]

hrothgar, on Jan 15 2008, 09:46 AM, said:

Said teams are supposed to schedule a final round on their own.

I have no idea what happens if the two teams can't agree to a date/time...

I have no idea whether the event needs to be run at an ACBL tournament with a real director.

Hell, maybe you could do it online.

[ArtK78]

In District 4, the Open Flight of the GNT used to compete for a weekend to reduce the field to 2 teams who would schedule the finals at some mutually convenient time and place. I have reached the finals 5 times (winning 3), and one of these 5 finals was held at a later time.

Since we were all from the Philadelphia area, we agreed to play at the Hamilton Club on City Line Avenue in Philadelphia on a Sunday a few weeks after the GNT weekend. There was no ACBL director on site, but several were available by phone if the need arose. We had many kibbitzers, and, as you might expect in the top flight, all of the players were experienced and we all knew each other very well.

There were no problems with the match (except for the detail that we lost).

After several years of running the event in this manner, enough complaints were made so that the event is now run to produce a winner on the weekend. This is no longer a major problem, as participation in the event is down so much that last year there were only 7 teams in the Open Flight. Between the 4 flights (Open, A, B and C) there were about 45 teams in play.

[TimG]

pclayton, on Jan 15 2008, 12:54 PM, said:

pclayton, on Jan 15 2008, 08:23 PM, said:

This is incredible.

I can't believe an event would reduce the field to two teams and then reconvene for a final somewhere else.

It has been this way for many years, but depends upon the number of entries -- sometimes the event is completed over the two-day weekend. I've played in three finals (two flight B and one flight A) and each event was a one weekend event.

New England is much smaller than some Districts making it more convenient than if you had teams from, say, Denver and Boise.

The matches are often played at clubs or in someone's home (with a director available by phone).

In the past, there has been a default time (usually a centrally located sectional) which the match must be played at if the teams cannot come to agreement on a time.

[barmar]

The email I got from the organizer of the event said that we have to schedule the final before the Cromwell Regional (about a month from now), and play it by the end of May. Since the traveling player often comes home for weekends, I'm sure we'll be able to work something out. I spoke to one of the team members today, and he mentioned President's Day and the Saturday before the Super Bowl as possibilities convenient to them.

Last year both finalists were teams from our club, so the final was held concurrently with our weekly club game. I'm not sure this will be feasible this year, I think the CoC says that it's a 56-board final, which is a full day of playing.

[Rossoneri]

Interesting.

No one was completely innocent of course, and I am not saying Richard was completely right, but the fact is of course that the opponents started the gamesmanship first, and so, could easily be sanctioned by the aforementioned 74A2. Perhaps Richard could have used more tact with the director (especially) and the opponents.

I think the fact that the event has ended up with two finalists leaving them to conduct their own finals is perhaps more appropriate to the title!