[pclayton]

Explain your answer please.

[hrothgar]

pclayton, on Jan 8 2008, 09:23 PM, said:

Explain your answer please.

I (obviously) can't be sure but I sincerely doubt it...

Simply put, I think that conciousness is a function of the brain's electro-chemistry. Once the brain turns to pudding, that's that...

Conversely, I don't believe in an immortal soul that carries on after us.

[EricK]

If you mean will my consciousness continue after I die, then I strongly suspect the answer is no. If you mean will other people's consciousness continue after I die then I strongly suspect the answer is yes!

[h2osmom]

We have all heard the stories surrounding near death episodes, and there seems to be some evidence that there is consciousness when the person is non responsive, and even during such things as aggressive resuscitation. but this is not death, the brain is functioning during these events. Once death has occurred, then I believe there is no further consciousness.

[Al_U_Card]

Speculation is just seeing what has yet to be revealed.

We are here to determine just how to ensure that the conscious awareness that we have achieved can be maintained.

Death is the portal through which we must pass and that portal has the normal function of putting all the pieces back where they came from, ready for the next try.

Once you have raised your consciousness to the level required to understand and to effect the necessary adjustments, all components will remain in their established functionalities.

The state of non-existence is only the unawareness of existence by the conscious self. Your essence (spirit if you will) can neither be created nor destroyed in this reality. It persists and energetically seeks its own "level", ie the most stable conformation of its integrated intelligence possible under the given circumstances.

Consciousness and the creativity needed for the transformation of energy into whatever form is required by our intent, is our goal and purpose.

Anything less is of little interest or consequence.

[PassedOut]

No. After one dies, the physical processes necessary for consciousness do not exist.

[matmat]

in my definition of death, nothing survives, body, consciousness, etc.... so sort of by default, no, no there isn't.

[jdonn]

I don't think I'm concious at work right now.

[kfay]

jdonn, on Jan 8 2008, 03:42 PM, said:

I don't think I'm concious at work right now.

[Al_U_Card]

not conscientious possibly unless you are a mattress tester...

[helene_t]

Maybe it will one day be possible to evacuate parts of a person's mental functions by copying it to a digital medium before the person dies. Until then, the answer is obviously no.

[mikeh]

helene_t, on Jan 8 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Maybe it will one day be possible to evacuate parts of a person's mental functions by copying it to a digital medium before the person dies. Until then, the answer is obviously no.

I have never understood the validity of the science fiction idea of transferring our mind onto a computer. No matter what mechanism is positied, it seems to me that all that would happen is that some computer would suddenly 'experience' my mind state, if that makes any sense: and that regardless of whether my organic brain is destroyed or preserved during this process, the 'I' that is me is not, from the pov of that 'I' the same 'I' that now inhabits the computer... and the very first process that the new 'I' undergoes will change it in a way different from the way in which my 'I' would change, because, no matter how well simulated the duplicate mind may be, it is running under different operating conditions.

'My' consciousness will not be transferred in this process. If 'I' survive, then there will be two very similar personalities/minds diverging immediately, while if 'I' am destroyed in the process of 'uploading', then 'I' am dead and there is no consciousness for me... even if the software thinks there is

[Al_U_Card]

That is what pov is all about. Perception and intent depend upon pov as the fulcrum of the lever. You can never be what you were. Continuity thru time and space with awareness of our state and place. Perfection in its unicity. Each element differentiated from the whole. Life, the absolute joy of the spirit. Death is only the ultimate insult.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Explain your answer please.

We can't explain gravity yet you want me to explain this?

I can explain it this way. This year, I made a New Year's resolution to not make any New Year's resolutions. I didn't make any, but now I don't know if I succeded or failed.

[helene_t]

mikeh, on Jan 9 2008, 02:19 AM, said:

'My' consciousness will not be transferred in this process. If 'I' survive, then there will be two very similar personalities/minds diverging immediately, while if 'I' am destroyed in the process of 'uploading', then 'I' am dead and there is no consciousness for me... even if the software thinks there is

By the same token, the Mikeh of yesterday does not exist anymore, it's just that the Mikeh of today has his memory and therefore has the illusion that he's the same person.

Suppose your mind is cloned and the original is not destroyed. There will be two Mikeh's tomorrow, both having the memories of Mikeh of today and therefore both claiming to be you. Maybe the clone can acknowledge intellectually that it's just a clone ("I'm made of silicon and all my, uhm I mean Mike's, friends say he was made of neurons") but it will feel the same, and in fact I would argue that it has as much of a right to the heritage of Mikeh as the other copy has, since a soul is software, not hardware.

This is just a thought experiment, of course, I'm not claiming that it will ever happen, let alone that it will happen soon enough for any BBF posters to make use of it.

[barmar]

For all we know, we ARE made of silicon, and everything we experience is an elaborate simulation, a la The Matrix. If it's done well enough, how could you tell otherwise?

I think the original question is pretty silly to ask. We don't really know what consciousness is -- we have an intuitive notion of it, but some of the best minds on the planet have trouble defining it concretely. We have even less of an idea of how it's formed in the brain.

And Douglas Hofstadter, in I Am a Strange Loop, suggests that one's consciousness is not limited to their own mind, but is in a sense spread out among the minds of everyone who knows them. So while he doesn't believe in a soul that lives on after death, he believes that part of your consciousness persists in the memories of your loved ones. When they think, "Joe would have loved this," it's kind of like Joe's retained consciousness enjoying the experience.

[gwnn]

Winstonm, on Jan 9 2008, 05:23 AM, said:

Quote

Explain your answer please.

We can't explain gravity yet you want me to explain this?

I can explain it this way. This year, I made a New Year's resolution to not make any New Year's resolutions. I didn't make any, but now I don't know if I succeded or failed.

sounds like success to me.....

your example in the other thread seemed to be better ("if i try to fail and succeed, what did i do?")

[Wackojack]

[quote name='Al_U_Card' date='Jan 8 2008, 02:14 PM']
Interesting. Not sure all this stuff is really from you, or even serious. It sounds like the words of a mystic who has a following for his profound insights. Lets just try to understand what you are saying.

"Speculation is just seeing what has yet to be revealed."

In your dreams. Speculation is mere.

"We are here to determine just how to ensure that the conscious awareness that we have achieved can be maintained."

Ontological. Like evolution? Collective conciousness?

"Death is the portal through which we must pass and that portal has the normal function of putting all the pieces back where they came from, ready for the next try."

Sounds like re-incarnation

"Once you have raised your consciousness to the level required to understand and to effect the necessary adjustments, all components will remain in their established functionalities."

I do not understand this statement. Obviously my conciousness has not reached the required level.


"The state of non-existence is only the unawareness of existence by the conscious self. Your essence (spirit if you will) can neither be created nor destroyed in this reality. It persists and energetically seeks its own "level", ie the most stable conformation of its integrated intelligence possible under the given circumstances."

Re-incarnation again?


"Consciousness and the creativity needed for the transformation of energy into whatever form is required by our intent, is our goal and purpose."

Circular statement

"Anything less is of little interest or consequence."

Now here is the nub. Little interest or consequence to whom?

"That is what pov is all about. " What is pov? Point of view?

" You can never be what you were." True we change our physical molecules continuously.

"Continuity thru time and space with awareness of our state and place. Perfection in its unicity. Each element differentiated from the whole." Pseuds corner.

"Life, the absolute joy of the spirit." I like that.

"Death is only the ultimate insult." Who is it insulting?

[Al_U_Card]

Hi WJ

Thanks for the response.

Nope, not from any mystic (unless I qualify, but then I might "see" the cards better at the table... ) just stream of consciousness mostly.

What I need is the refining of the statement that comes from exchanges like yours. How you receive and deal with any statement that I might share with you helps both of us better understand the nature and quality of our experience.

When we extemporize, it is possible to leave the realm of reflection and enter into the state of just exactly what we are made of. Getting the feel (the "vibe" if you will) for what I have to say goes a long way to fostering mutual respect. Once we can open up to each other, it becomes easier to slide the egos out of the way and not be afraid to "rattle the foundations" as it were.

If we set aside the intellectual aspect of your query, before I attempt to address your questions/statements, just exactly how did what I had to say make you feel?

[Gerben42]

I can understand why people want to ask these questions, but any answer to it can not be tested and is fairly useless.

So my answer to this question is a firm maybe with a mix of what do you mean by "death" and "consciousness"... Why wasn't that an option?

Only thing I know that

Q: Is there consciousness after death?
A: 42

doesn't make sense.