[jahol]

What do you bid with the following hand (both vulnerable, IMPs)

J---J10---AK86---AJ10952

after

4S-pass-pass-??? ?

[Fluffy]

a simple 5 clubs.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

5C

I wont pass, although you may convince me,
that it is best, I wont double, I wont bid
4NT. What is left?

With kind regards
Marlowe

[655321]

5♣

[whereagles]

4NT for meeeeee.

[benlessard]

5C should play well facing a doubleton. So only when partner has 4/5 D and a stiff C 4Nt will turn out better then 5C. The 3D 2C & 4D/3C are more likely.

[gwnn]

if pd has the usual 4333 junk in context (4-4-3-2, 3-5-3-2, etc) and 9-10 hcp, 4♠x rates to be much much better than 5♣(x). So x seems better.

[Apollo81]

This club suit says defend to me. I would bid 5♣ with x J10 Axxx AKJ10xx or x J AKxx AJ10xxxx.

[pclayton]

Gotta x.

Good thing we don't have 7 clubs, otherwise someone would call me a retard.

[nick_s]

I wouldn't bid 4NT since I play this as takeout for all 3 suits - particularly hearts. I thought this was the standard treatment over 4♠. Am I wrong about this?

I would double.

[kfay]

The question for me here is whether or not we can make 4m because we're definitely not making 4♥. If I'm going to bid I bid 4NT but I would never double because I think it's a fairly good bet partner will bid 5♥.

I pass.

Edit: After looking at the posts I have to ask: is X for penalty and 4NT as general takeout standard? I know I've heard that many times before but I don't really know the answer. If it is penalty oriente- I'll X... and hope it works out.

[awm]

The standard meaning is that X is "cards." Often this shows something like a strong notrump. Partner is expected to leave it in with a balanced hand, and to pull with a lot of shape (typically a six-card suit or a 5-5 distribution). The double doesn't imply any trump strength; in fact it is supposed to be convertible values and with a hand including 4 defensive tricks but worthless on offense (i.e. KQJT Axx xxx xxx) you're supposed to pass. On the other hand, partner is supposed to leave the double in with a balanced hand, so there should be some expectation to set the contract.

[cherdano]

To add to Adam's post: The standard meaning of 4N (in North America) is a 2-suited takeout. With 0544 you have to pass or double.

[awm]

I think double is right here.

If partner has a lot of shape, he's going to pull our double anyway. Most likely we will find the best spot in this case (hearts if partner has six, partner's minor if he's 5-5). So the interesting case is when partner has a balanced hand. If we give partner:

♠xxx
♥xxxx
♦xxx
♣xxx

We can see that 4♠ is cold, probably ten tricks or occasionally eleven. In five clubs, we will take eight tricks much of the time (5 clubs, 3 diamonds) although seven is a strong possibility given likely bad breaks in the minors.

So it looks like in this case there are 18 "total tricks" which is what you'd expect if you believe in LOTT (9 trumps each way). If we start adding high cards to partner's hand, a few of them may increase the number of total tricks (♦Q) and a few may decrease it (♠K) but in many cases it will stay about the same. So it seems like there are probably 18 total tricks opposite a balanced partner, with some possibility of 17 or 19. In this case when 5♣ makes, 4♠ will go down at least two if not three. It is quite possible that both 4♠ and 5♣ are failing, and virtually impossible that both make. If 4♠X makes opposite a balanced partner, then 5♣X was probably not a good sacrifice (down at least two, often three).

[mike777]

Amazing how often double or cuebid comes up on these tough bidding hands.

[benlessard]

I think the chance partner pull the double are close to nil. and if he does its going to be 5H. I understand that X or pass is more likely to work then 5C but for the IMPs scale 5C seems like a safety bid. I think there is at least 19 tricks on that deal. Facing agressive opps i would X.

[gnasher]

awm, on Jan 8 2008, 08:44 PM, said:

The standard meaning is that X is "cards."

In BWS, "A double of an opening through four spades is for takeout."

This is the sort of area where I'd expect BWS to reflect mainstream North American opinion. Does it not?