[kenrexford]

Two players who fancy themselves great bidders had a debate about the bidding on these two hands:

Opener: ♠x ♥AKxx ♦AQxxx ♣Kxx
Responder: ♠AQx ♥xx ♦108x ♣QJ109x

The auction (should be "normal" 2/1 GF approach):

1♦-P-1♠-P-
2♣-P-3♣-P-
3NT-all pass

It turns out that 3NT makes if played by Responder.

Responder: "Why not bid where you are and simply bid 3♥. I'll then bid 3NT and the contract will play from the right side?"
Opener: "I believed that 3♥ expressed concern about 3NT because of the heart suit and felt that 3NT was more proper with AK in hearts. Why bid the 3-card spade suit?"
Responder: "I bid 1♠ because that's where I live. Why bid the three-card club suit? Why not just pattern out properly with 2♥?"
Opener: "I'm not good enough for 2♥. I think that 2♣ is more flexible, and I can always bid 2♥ after a 2♦ courtesy correction."
Responder: "3♥, by the way, is not some sort of asking bid. It just shows where you live."

Thoughts?

[gwnn]

nice geographical synesthesia Ken.

[jdonn]

1♦ 1NT
2♥ 3NT

Bridge becomes very easy when people stop bidding suits they don't have...

[the hog]

Could not have said it more succinctly than Josh. "Bid 1S because that's where I live?" Well he lives in funny places.

[655321]

1♦     I have an opening hand with some Diamonds
1NT   I don't have a 4 card major, I don't have enough points to respond at the 2 level, and my hand is not suitable for raising your diamonds
2♥     I have extra values, 4 card ♥, and longer ♦
3NT   Great, we should be able to make 3NT

If I have been playing golf for a few years, and decide that I am now too good a player to keep my head still, and to keep my eyes open when I hit the ball*, that does not make me a great player...

* Forgive me if this is not correct golf behavior, if necessary substitute some suitable golfing advice.

[kfay]

Responder is a wacko.

[sceptic]

kenrexford, on Jan 7 2008, 02:54 AM, said:

Two players who fancy themselves great bidders had a debate about the bidding on these two hands:

Opener: ♠x ♥AKxx ♦AQxxx ♣Kxx
Responder: ♠AQx ♥xx ♦108x ♣QJ109x

The auction (should be "normal" 2/1 GF approach):

1♦-P-1♠-P-
2♣-P-3♣-P-
3NT-all pass

It turns out that 3NT makes if played by Responder.

Responder: "Why not bid where you are and simply bid 3♥. I'll then bid 3NT and the contract will play from the right side?"
Opener: "I believed that 3♥ expressed concern about 3NT because of the heart suit and felt that 3NT was more proper with AK in hearts. Why bid the 3-card spade suit?"
Responder: "I bid 1♠ because that's where I live. Why bid the three-card club suit? Why not just pattern out properly with 2♥?"
Opener: "I'm not good enough for 2♥. I think that 2♣ is more flexible, and I can always bid 2♥ after a 2♦ courtesy correction."
Responder: "3♥, by the way, is not some sort of asking bid. It just shows where you live."

Thoughts?

will I be able to see a 1 spade bid when (if ever) I become advanced

[CSGibson]

I actually like opener's auction if it is agreed to play very strong reverses. I hate the 1 spade bid. Just bid like a human being - 1NT.

[karlson]

I have to admit to having perpetrated similar 1s bids before, but I would bid 1n on this hand. I think if opener thinks he is not good enough for 2h, he just has to bid 1n, and I agree with his interpretation of the potential 3h bid.

[CSGibson]

karlson, on Jan 6 2008, 11:46 PM, said:

I have to admit to having perpetrated similar 1s bids before, but I would bid 1n on this hand. I think if opener thinks he is not good enough for 2h, he just has to bid 1n, and I agree with his interpretation of the potential 3h bid.

Now 1NT after a 1 spade bid is definitely a bid I would hate - you don't have the shape and your hand is better than expected by a queen. Lying about one club seems like less of a bridge sin than lying about both shape and HCP - there's no way to recover intelligently on a subsequent auction, while if you are passed in 2 clubs, at least that could be your best spot.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Jan 7 2008, 05:07 AM, said:

1♦ 1NT
2♥ 3NT

Bridge becomes very easy when people stop bidding suits they don't have...

Quite

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

ok, I would have bid 2H instead of 2C, and
this would be my first question to opener,
because in the given seq. 3H instead of 3NT
would be 4th suit, e.g. asking for a heart
stopper, so opener had endplayed himself
to bid 3NT after 3C.

I prefer the reverse, but I belong to the light
reverse school, and if you cant make the reverse,
you have to bid 2D
Assuming 3H over 3C is natural, patterning out,
(which it is not, at least for me), it should show
a 5440 shape, and hence is also a lie, you have to
decide for your own, if this lie is bigger than the
lie, which ou make with a reverse.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I did not realise, that the 1S bid was made on a
3 carder, ok: Simply put, both got what they deserved.

[helene_t]

I agree with opener that his hand is too weak for a reverse, but that's a matter of style of course.

As for a 3♥ bid by opener, responder has his theory right.

Responder should have responded 1NT, though. Not in order to right-side the contract but simply because it's the only correct bid.

[Codo]

Of course
1 ♦ 1 NT
2 ♥ 3 NT is too easy for immortals, but good enough for me.

Interessting is, what to do after
1 ♦ 1 ♠?

If I am too weak for a reverse, I would rebid 1 NT (even if I hate to do so with a singelton). But I am not, why should I be? I have 16 nice HCPS and a good 5 card suit, so 2 Heart is easy.
In this case the bidding had been:

1 ♦ 1 ♠
2 ♥ 3 NT ( I habe a sure Club Stopper)

Still easy.

So, the hand could stand ONE Fake bid, but not two, because after 2 Club, 3 Club from responder is correct and seals the fate of the contract.

And for the last question: For me 3 Heart as 4. suit is OF COURSE asking for stopper. What else should it be?

[kenrexford]

Oh, and as a bonus question, which idiot was I at the table? LOL

[helene_t]

That question is a lot tougher. I'll say 60% chance you were opener and 40% that you were responder.

[hrothgar]

Comment 1:

If I were playing opposite myself I would probably have the following auction

1N - 3N

I don't consider south's hand strong enough for a reverse
I don't like any of my rebids after 1♦ - 1♠

It's not textbook bidding and leads to the same contract from the same side as you and your partner perpetrated, however, at least I don't puke looking at the auction. (I suspect that other people do)

Comment 2:

If my partner were to open 1♦, I'd bid 1NT with responder's hand in a Heartbeat. 1♠ is idiotic. You're completely screwed if opener raises to 2♠ (which looks pretty likely)

2NT is typically artificial and forcing
3♣ is new minor forcing

Your best case scenario is that you pass 2♠, catch a 4 card raise, and play a Moysian with the tap in the hand with the Spade honors. Even here, you have a very real possibility that you're playing in a 3-3 Spade fit.

[cherdano]

kenrexford, on Jan 6 2008, 08:54 PM, said:

Responder: "I bid 1♠ because that's where I live."

Yeah how could he reply 1N which suggests 8+cards in the minors, and often a club suit.

My bet is you were opener.

[inquiry]

Quote

Oh, and as a bonus question, which idiot was I at the table? LOL

1♠ was crazy bid, 2♣ was a creative solution to a difficult rebid problem, some thought went into 3NT instead of a knee jerk 3♥... being concerned what partner would take 3♥ to mean. So opener seemed less idiotic than responder. Since your partner was not identified, we don't know who was the less idiotic of the partnership.... I can think of players more idiotic than you, and players less iditioc than you. I will say that bidding 3 card suits at the one or two level both sound like you, that is, I find it believable that you would respond to 1m with 1M holding a 3 card suit, or rebid in a 3 card club suit after opening 1D.

Also, the inconsitency of opener asking why partner bids a three card suit, when he himself bid a three card suit sounds like you, as does the logic of why 3H's is wrong. I can't see you saying the last sentence credited to responder, as I believe you would hold the opener's view on why bid/not bid 3H.

The only problem with this logic, is then why did you post this hand? This is one of the simpliest hands in the world to bid, and doesn't take a great bidder on either side to reach 3NT from the correct side.

[foo]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 7 2008, 04:22 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 7 2008, 05:07 AM, said:

1♦-1N;2♥-3N

Bridge becomes very easy when people stop bidding suits they don't have...

Quite

The hands in question:
Open: ♠x ♥AKxx ♦AQxxx ♣Kxx
Resp: ♠AQx ♥xx ♦108x ♣QJT9x

Count my vote as the quoted as well.

As for how "good" the reverse is with the given Opening hand:

K&R (x AKxx AQxxx Kxx) = 18.70
DK = 17-

So even for those playing Strong Reverses, Opener's hand should qualify.