[pclayton]

Matt and I had this situation come up last night. How would you take 4N in this sequence:

Pass (3♠) 3N (4♠)
4N?

If it matters, although I don't see why it should, its IMPs at adverse vulnerability.

Is there a consensus on the meaning of 4N?

Something else: If it matters to you, we play a 2N opening as the minors, so as a passed hand, a certain hand type can be excluded.

[whereagles]

If it can't be the minors, it must be to play

[mikeh]

nice problem.

Clearly (I think ) either 2 places to play or natural.

I prefer that a slow 4N be takeout and a fast one be natural. But it's ok to reverse these meanings, so long as partner is on the same wavelength.








Oh.. that's not allowed?

The argument in favour of 2 places to play is that this can work well whenever partner has a balanced hand, and it can even work when partner, with a running single suit, passes (rather than risk a misfit at the 5-level), since even if advancer is shapely, he must have some working cards.

The argument in favour of natural is that it is simple, and eliminates the risk of a misfit if partner pulls on his one-suiter.

I think the 2-suiter makes more sense to me, so long as it is understood that partner will be passing with a long solid suit, which is one of the permissible hand-types for 3N, and pulling with the balanced good hand, when the 2-suiter will probably do okay at the 5-level.

With simply balanced values, I think you have to say double, which, on the auction, is clearly transferable values, and short spades.

[Fluffy]

If it can be minors it could still be hearts and a minor, or even a 5-4 in the minors.

What hand would it want to be natural?, a long minor probably, balanced hands as well but I think they would rather double.

I have no clue what is best, depends on MPs and vulnerability

[ArtK78]

To play.

3NT was natural and to play. 4NT should be as well.

[helene_t]

Not sure what kind of hands would want to bid a natural 4N, given that 3N can be either a solid minor suit with a stopper, or a strong balanced hand, or somewhere in between. With the values for a natural 4N call, I think you can double. Opener will typically pass with a balanced hand and take out with a solid minor.

I think it should show two places to play.

[jdonn]

'Should' show two places to play. But I would never bust this out at the table.

[karlson]

I voted two places to play, but I remember a hand on the forums quite a while ago when it went 1N-(4♠)-4N and lots of people thought this was natural. If anything, I think it's more important for this one to be natural, since you're a passed hand and partner might figure out you have a two-suiter when you bid 5x.

[keylime]

This hasn't been discussed with Larry, and I better do so now.

[awm]

To look at things another way... notice that the 4NT bidder is a passed hand.

What would Pass-Pass-3♠-3NT-4♠-5♣ mean? Keep in mind that 3NT doesn't even show a balanced hand. Can responder really have a hand that wants to bid 5♣ opposite a potential singleton or doubleton, and not have opened any number of clubs in first chair? It seems extremely unlikely!

If 5♣ doesn't show a self-sufficient club suit (how could it?) then perhaps 5♣ should show two places to play, one of them being clubs. Obviously this too depends on your opening style, but a lot of us don't have a bid for a mediocre hand with 5-5 in the minors (for example).

In this case it makes a lot of sense for 4NT to be "to play." Of course, if we would open most 5-5 hands in some way, then it also makes a lot of sense for 4NT to be "to play."

[neilkaz]

awm, on Jan 2 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

To look at things another way... notice that the 4NT bidder is a passed hand.

What would Pass-Pass-3♠-3NT-4♠-5♣ mean? Keep in mind that 3NT doesn't even show a balanced hand. Can responder really have a hand that wants to bid 5♣ opposite a potential singleton or doubleton, and not have opened any number of clubs in first chair? It seems extremely unlikely!

If 5♣ doesn't show a self-sufficient club suit (how could it?) then perhaps 5♣ should show two places to play, one of them being clubs. Obviously this too depends on your opening style, but a lot of us don't have a bid for a mediocre hand with 5-5 in the minors (for example).

In this case it makes a lot of sense for 4NT to be "to play." Of course, if we would open most 5-5 hands in some way, then it also makes a lot of sense for 4NT to be "to play."

I also vote to play and agree with awm's fine analysis here.

[jdonn]

karlson, on Jan 2 2008, 04:31 PM, said:

I voted two places to play, but I remember a hand on the forums quite a while ago when it went 1N-(4♠)-4N and lots of people thought this was natural. If anything, I think it's more important for this one to be natural, since you're a passed hand and partner might figure out you have a two-suiter when you bid 5x.

That's different. In theory, the 1NT opener is very well defined and his partner can place the contract (although I know when there is that much preemption it can be very difficult to do so in one shot.) This 3NT overcall can be an extremely wide range of strength and hand types, so much more flexibility is required.

You can make a similar argument to what Adam made in the other direction, based on what double is instead of what 5♣ is. Surely it is not a trump stack (indeed shortness is essentially guaranteed) so it must be some scattered values or good defense. These are the hands that would want to bid 4NT natural, so it can't be needed as natural. The nice thing about that logic is it holds true whether the bidder is a passed hand or not, whereas the argument he made revolves around the passed hand status (is he suggesting 4NT is natural by a passed hand, two places to play by an unpassed hand since 5♣ there could easily be natural?)

[joshs]

pclayton, on Jan 2 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

Matt and I had this situation come up last night. How would you take 4N in this sequence:

Pass (3♠) 3N (4♠)
4N?

If it matters, although I don't see why it should, its IMPs at adverse vulnerability.

Is there a consensus on the meaning of 4N?

Something else: If it matters to you, we play a 2N opening as the minors, so as a passed hand, a certain hand type can be excluded.

Well my opinion, which is probably out of style these days is:
a. The 3N overcall established a forcing pass. Yes it might be the opps hand, but we bid game to make.
b. Since pass is forcing, you normally x as penalty, and pass to invite partner to rebid 4N (or rare cases 5m if he didn't really have a stopper) if his overcall was based on a long minor, but to x if based on a balanced hand
c. So you now have the sequences: 4N direct, and P then 4N available. In my mind, I think 4N direct is 2 places to play and P then 4N is a slam invite (maximum passed hand with a source of tricks, say x Axx xxx KQxxxx). If you did not have a source of tricks you would be happy defending.

If 3N did not establish a forcing pass then I think 4N is natural showing something like the x Axx xxx KQxxxx hand... (I would neither open 3C nor open 1C with this Vul). I do think there is a case for bidding your 1 suit with such a hand, and bidding 4N when you have 2 suits since you have no other way of showing that. Its just that without any agreements, I think if it can be natural, it is natural....

Actually, now that I think about it, I think 4N delayed as 2 places to play is much better then 4N direct as 2 places. When partner's 3N was based on a solid 7 bagger, and you bid 4N showing 2 places before partner can show that he was 1 suited, you can't play in partner's solid suit, and you can't play in 4N (except by partner breaking discipline). On the other hand, if you pass first and partner pulls to 5m, you are happy to play there with say 6520 shape and 2 card support. Hence I think 4N direct should be "natural", although unbalanced. While 4N delayed should be 2 places to play.

Of course partner being a passed hand might change what hand types partner can have, depending on the partner....

[han]

Either is possible, I'd prefer two places to play.

[inquiry]

Without discussing, playing with players of the caliber or you and MAtt, i would assume two places to play.

I play it as two places to play as well.

[cherdano]

Undiscussed it's natural. I guess after discussion I would prefer 2 suits by passed hand, natural by an unpassed hand.
Adverse vulnerability matters btw, it makes the natural meaning more attractive. Typically it would be based on a running minor.

[the hog]

Interestingly enough this is a sequence pd and I have discussed. I agree that it shows 2 places to play. To play this as natural is totally illogical. You are saying you are goiong to make precisely 10 tricks, having NO idea what pd's 3NT bid was based on. I agree that pass over the 3NT bid should be forcing btw.

[Cascade]

We have a series of rules for 4NT in competition.

On this auction 4NT would be natural.

Here are our rules:

4NT in COMP

To play
If we have previously offered NTs
1C (1S) 1NT (4S)
4NT to play
1C (1H) 3NT (4H)
4NT to play

There might be occasional auctions where 4NT is a jump and it is not needed as RKCB, Two-suited or Straight Ace-Ask - see those options below.

Roman Key-Card Blackwood
When we have explicit suit agreement and for some reason we cannot use Kickback.
1C (1H) 2H (4H)
4NT RKCB

1H (Pass) 2NT (4S)
4NT RKCB

Two-Suited
Partner has shown no strength or a minimum response and we do not have suit
agreement.

1C (4S) Pass (Pass)
4NT 6Cs + 4Ds/Hs (with Hs we might DBL)

1C (P/1H) 1S (4H)
4NT 6Cs +4+Ds

(4H/S) 4NT Two suited usually both minors but can
be one minor and Hs over 4S.

Over 4H 4NT could conceivably be one minor and Ss in a very strong hand.

(1H) Pass (4H) 4NT

(1C) Pass (4S) 4NT
etc

Blackwood - not RKCB

i/ When partner has shown general strength

1C (4S) 4NT

1H (4S) 4NT

1C (3S) 4NT

ii/ When partner has shown a limited hand like a pre-empt

2H (4S) 4NT

3C (4H) 4NT

3D (3H) 4NT

iii/ The opponents have shown weakness and we can bid two-suiters in some other way

(3H) 4NT Blackwood since 4C/D are two-suiters with Ss and 4H is both minors

(1H) Pass (3H) 4NT as above

This also applies after weak twos and
(1H) Pass (2H) 4NT as above

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 natural - no, there exists a bid for this type of hand: X
and even if we are red vs. green, I dont see why I should
go down instead of the opponents
If you play MP, than it may make some sense to play
4NT as natural, but playing IMPs it does not, you may get
only 500 instead of 600 but so be it
#2 Possible option, and given that the 4NT bidder cant be 5-5
in the minors, the bid has to show 5H and a 5 card minor.
#3 maybe the bid is for takeout, in which case it has to be
a 5440 shape

Taken #2 and #3 together, I would say the bid promies at least
4 hearts and 4 cards in another minor. It may depend on your weak two style,
if a 5 card heart suit is still possible.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: But I would say the bid does not exists, and until I see the hand
I would believe partner should make a penalty X.

[Cascade]

P_Marlowe, on Jan 3 2008, 11:08 PM, said:

Hi,

#1 natural - no, there exists a bid for this type of hand: X
and even if we are red vs. green, I dont see why I should
go down instead of the opponents
If you play MP, than it may make some sense to play
4NT as natural, but playing IMPs it does not, you may get
only 500 instead of 600 but so be it

All of this is only true in a limited sense. That is double will usually be better or nearly as good as 4NT with 'traditional' balanced hands.

However NTs is also a possible contract on a hand with a source of tricks when a double may not be very lucrative at all.