[Fluffy]

Scoring: IMP

W - N - E - S
1♣-2♣-3♣-ps
3♦-3♥-4♦-ps
4♥-ps-5♣-ps
ps-ps

---

[jdaming]

5♣ kindof seems like a copout indicating that both of his previous calls were just being competitive rather than actually having 2 beautiful support suits.

[kenrexford]

4♦ was a big bid, IMO, but 4♥ would have been bigger and better. 4♦ left no good options for Responder over 4♥. Speak you piece when and how you need to.

Now, perhaps 4♦, and then 4♠ as LTTC over 4♥, is ideal (or 4NT LTTC), but I doubt that technique was available. More likely 4♠ by Opener as LTTC might be useful and spotted.

[pclayton]

This is a max 3♣ call. Why not make a forcing pass over 3♥?

[nick_s]

Agree with Ken about 4♥ instead of 4♦.

But having bid 4♦, East still has another chance. Pard has made two slam tries, and you can hardly be better. The only concern is that there are 2 spade losers. After 4♥, I would bid 4NT.

Getting to 7♣, is another matter. I don't know how you tell pard about the 5th club and the extra diamond honor.

[awm]

Hmm, I don't get the criticism of 4♦. Wouldn't bidding 4♥ there tend to deny a diamond control? I thought we cuebid controls up the line. Unless it's somehow a splinter non-jump, which is interesting but seems far from "normal."

On the other hand, east didn't cuebid 3♠, so should usually not have a spade control. And west cuebid 4♥ anyway, which must therefore promise slam interest and a spade control. East has diamonds locked up and second round control of hearts -- it seems like he should bid past 5♣.

[Fluffy]

7♣ is not a great contract Nick

[kenrexford]

awm, on Dec 31 2007, 10:57 AM, said:

Hmm, I don't get the criticism of 4♦. Wouldn't bidding 4♥ there tend to deny a diamond control? I thought we cuebid controls up the line. Unless it's somehow a splinter non-jump, which is interesting but seems far from "normal."

On the other hand, east didn't cuebid 3♠, so should usually not have a spade control. And west cuebid 4♥ anyway, which must therefore promise slam interest and a spade control. East has diamonds locked up and second round control of hearts -- it seems like he should bid past 5♣.

I would imagine that a "non-jump splinter" of 4♥ would be observed as such by most folks. The idea that a splinter denies a diamond card is weird, IMO. I understand that bypassing 4♦ on the one hand sounds like a denial of a diamond card, but a splinter (even non-jump) is a different beast.

[jdonn]

This is so much simpler than people are making it out to be. West has a slam force over 4♦. I don't understand any criticism of east. 4♦ was a very strong bid, and he has no spade control which for all he knows is what the partnership lacks. Sure an 'ongoing, not-blackwood' 4NT would be nice, but if he doesn't play it he doesn't play it.

I saw the quote from Adam's post right above this and was about to say I agree, but then I read the whole post. I don't think 4♦ is cuebidding at all, it shows a maximum with a double fit. Sure diamond strength is strongly implied, but I would never think it denies a spade control. But this is still all moot, how could west not bid slam over 4♦? I'll pay off to partner mirroring my shape.

BTW, the slam should be bid in DIAMONDS IMO. Responder could be, say, 3244.

[mikeh]

I have no strong feelings on the question of 4♦ or 4♥ over the 3♥ bid: I think both are acceptable. Since both calls show slam interest, West has to carry the blame for missing slam here.

I would give east a small amount of blame since I think that, if available, 4N over 4♥ would be better than 5♣. Of course, a lot of players (mistakenly, imo) seem to treat almost all 4N calls (in suit auctions) as blackwood, but this is a perfect example of its use as 'too much to bid 5♣, but not enough to drive to slam' call. However, if 4N would be treated as keycard, then west is entirely to blame.

As for West's best call over 4N, I think it is probably 5N if understood as 'pick a slam', to cater to east being 4=4, as josh suggested.

[keylime]

Ditto Josh and Mike - I want to play in diamonds if possible on this hand.

[mike777]

Fluffy, on Dec 31 2007, 09:28 AM, said:

Dealer: West Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ A6 ♥ A5 ♦ QJ104 ♣ AKJ63 ♠ 1073 ♥ 3 ♦ AK73 ♣ 109752

W - N - E - S 1♣-2♣-3♣-ps 3♦-3♥-4♦-ps 4♥-ps-5♣-ps ps-ps

4D seems just fine
How can west not rkc over 4d?



Of course 4H is rkc for diamonds for me and the correct response is 5clubs so again why is west passing.

[rogerclee]

I don't see any criticism for E. How can he know about the two major bullets? What's to stop you from holding Kx AJ QJTx AKJxx?

Anyway, I think it is tough to bid this slam, but after the 4D encouragement, I would probably go for it without cuebidding.

I'd say the slam should be in diamonds too, except for the psycho-bidding by N, indicating that he may be void.

[ArtK78]

I am curious about one thing.

Many posters are stating that they want to play this slam in diamonds, not clubs. I assume that they mean that they would prefer to play the 4-4 diamond fit than a hypothetical 5-4 club fit, since the 4-4 fit will often produce an extra trick.

However, on the actual hand, you have a 5-5 club fit, not a 5-4 club fit. Therefore, there is no advantage (and a possible disadvantage) of playing in the 4-4 diamond fit. If you get a 5-0 diamond break, you will not be able to avoid the loss of a trump trick playing in diamonds, but you have a chance to avoid a diamond loser if you are playing in clubs.

There is also more of a chance of an adverse club ruff playing in a diamond contract, but that may be a natural club loser in any event, so that is not as much of a consideration.

[mikeh]

ArtK78, on Dec 31 2007, 03:51 PM, said:

I am curious about one thing.

Many posters are stating that they want to play this slam in diamonds, not clubs.  I assume that they mean that they would prefer to play the 4-4 diamond fit than a hypothetical 5-4 club fit, since the 4-4 fit will often produce an extra trick.

However, on the actual hand, you have a 5-5 club fit, not a 5-4 club fit.  Therefore, there is no advantage (and a possible disadvantage) of playing in the 4-4 diamond fit.  If you get a 5-0 diamond break, you will not be able to avoid the loss of a trump trick playing in diamonds, but you have a chance to avoid a diamond loser if you are playing in clubs.

There is also more of a chance of an adverse club ruff playing in a diamond contract, but that may be a natural club loser in any event, so that is not as much of a consideration.

That is why West wants to give partner a choice of slams: east will choose clubs with 5 clubs, but should choose diamonds with, say, 3=2=4=4 or 2=3=4=4.

This is one reason that many expert pairs use a bid of 5N as choice of slams rather than, for example, GSF. But, as with any nuanced bid, a partnership needs to be on reasonably firm ground when deciding to play '5N is (usually/often) pick a slam'.

[mike777]

does not 3c here show 5 clubs? Bidding on 4 smallish clubs seems a bit much here.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Dec 31 2007, 04:49 PM, said:

does not 3c here show 5 clubs? Bidding on 4 smallish clubs seems a bit much here.

xxx xx AKxx Q109x: who isn't bidding 3♣ here? Are we really passing?

Yes, it is still possible that partner is 4=3=3=3, for example, but are we allowing ourselves to be blocked out of the bidding out of that fear?

[655321]

mike777, on Dec 31 2007, 04:49 PM, said:

does not 3c here show 5 clubs?  Bidding on 4 smallish clubs seems a bit much here.

No, 3♣ does not 'show' 5 clubs.

It is true, you will often have 5 clubs to raise here.
But this is a competitive auction, opponents may be about to bid 4M.
If you have 4 clubs and the values for competing, it is important to let partner know.

[mike777]

interesting I would not have bid a direct 3c with only 4clubs I would have just passed with those example hands. We may only have 7 clubs let alone only 8 clubs at the 3 level and I do have some defense.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Dec 31 2007, 05:20 PM, said:

interesting I would not have bid a direct 3c with only 4clubs I would have just passed with those example hands. We may only have 7 clubs let alone only 8 clubs at the 3 level and I do have some defense.

If we pass, and RHO bounces to 4♥, do we expect partner to bid? Do we need to pass 2♣ and then guess whether with our 'defence' we should be doubling for -590 if only 2 minor winners cash or should we bid our cold game? Count me out of this guessing game: let me bid 3♣ and partner will know to bid 5♣ over 4♥. Bridge is a game for bidders

---