[Apollo81]

Unfavorable, IMPs

What is the worst possible 3316 hand, if any, that would overcall 2♣ after RHO opens 1♦ but then fail to balance after 2♦pp

[kenrexford]

I'm stumped.

[pclayton]

Perhaps they are identical.

[benlessard]

I sometime X instead of making a 2C overcall with 3316. But a hand with strong clubs where the lead directing and stolen space is more important then showing the majors is possible.

Jxx
KQx
x
KQJTxx

I see no intelligent reason to balance after 2D but im willing to make a red 2♣ overcall.

[jtfanclub]

Apollo81, on Dec 27 2007, 11:54 PM, said:

Unfavorable, IMPs

What is the worst possible 3316 hand, if any, that would overcall 2♣ after RHO opens 1♦ but then fail to balance after 2♦pp

Here I go again.

432
432
2
AKJT98

Would you guys pass the 1♦ bid, or X to watch your partner get his head chopped off?

[jdonn]

Justin's example seems most plausible, JT's seems fine too. Ben's looks like a clear reopening double to me.

[Fluffy]

jtfanclub, on Dec 28 2007, 06:27 AM, said:

Apollo81, on Dec 27 2007, 11:54 PM, said:

Unfavorable, IMPs

What is the worst possible 3316 hand, if any, that would overcall 2♣ after RHO opens 1♦ but then fail to balance after 2♦pp

Here I go again.

432
432
2
AKJT98

Would you guys pass the 1♦ bid, or X to watch your partner get his head chopped off?

that hand is a clear 3♣ IMO, closer with this vulnerability, but still it would be my option.


My minimums for a 2♣ overcall are higher than most. Worst hand something like

Axx
Qxx
x
KQ10xxx

[whereagles]

gonzalo, you pass a lot, no?

[awm]

I think I'd put it something like this. A 2♣ bid at these colors shows one of:

(1) 14+ hcp, any 6+♣, or 5♣ with good suit quality. I'd always balance with these hands at the two-level if holding the right shape.

(2) 11-13 hcp, 6+♣ and a good suit. Again I'd balance at the two-level.

(3) 8-10 hcp, 7+♣, or 6♣ with a really good suit. These hands would be 3♣ preempts at other colors, but at unfavorable 2♣ is safer (3♣ should be 7♣ and a good suit). On these hands I would not bid again unless forced.

[Fluffy]

whereagles, on Dec 28 2007, 11:44 AM, said:

gonzalo, you pass a lot, no?

No, I preempt too much.

[benlessard]

Imps red vs white
432
432
2
AKJT98

To think about 2C or 3C is a joke right ? I really hope you are kidding.

Jxx
KQx
x
KQJTxx

Quote

Ben's looks like a clear reopening double to me.

Not a reopening for me. Not because the risk are that high. But what are the benefits ?
Partner with 3C or with 5M & 2C (without points in D) will strive for action. So after his pass I don`t expect to make anything. Even if we do they (because of a M fit) they will make 3D anyway. Taking a small risk just to push them at a level they will make anyway isnt my style.

Kxx xxx x KQJxxx

This aint a 2C red overcall for me but i know since its over (1D)---2C you are taking more space.

This is the reason why I don`t like pure negative X anymore. Don`t get me wrong i truly understand the power of lead directing & space consuming overcalls (and after 1D---2C we play pure neg X anyway). Just that since we play more cards showing X and more semi penalty X instead of pure neg X i wish to play against juniors 365 days a year. I agree 100% that the competitive/negative/take-out double have a higher frequency then a power/semi-penalty/card showing doubles.

Just that in imps with today modern agressive overcall/preempt style pure take-out double are not hte optimal methods.


A thing i lke to play is that
1M---(2X) show a standard junior style overcall (8-14 pts) or even a weak 2 in the suit.
and 1M---(1NT) is artificial and show a grandpa 2 level overcall (15-18) in an unknown suit.
The downside is that 1M---(1Nt)----??? here the opps can play neg free bids or raise with complete scrap.

1S----(1Nt)-----pass-------2C (art rejection bids)
3S----???

here we are preempted. The 2nd is that we lose the natural 1Nt overcall.

The upside is that we preempt them more often then we are victim of their preempt. (1S)------2H (could be almost a weak 2)
We can use the 3 level for something else.

We are also not forced to raise 2 to 3 in case partner had a 15-18 hands.
(1S)---2H-------(pass)-------??? with 2 aces and nothing else you have an easy pass.

And after (1S)----1NT
we are doing wonders when overcaller has a 2 suited hands with strongish values.

[kenrexford]

A lot of this question has to do with style.

For me, the original 2♣ call is a values call. I will not have a hand with 3-3-1-6 where thisauction would end things, because (1) we are unfavorable and, more importantly, (2) we are playing IMPs.

The same logic that justifies preemption of the opponents via 1♦-2♣ at matchpoints, favorable, is the reason why unfavorable at IMPs I would not bid 2♣ with garbage -- 2♣ is preemptive on both sides. If I could have crap to wow, partner is too pressed.

Now, one might counter that advancer's pass with this information might somehow dissuade further action, except that he knows that I will reopen with 3-3-1-6 pattern and, therefore, need not make a stretchy call. 2M directly can therefore be a more weighty bid.

But, this is stylistic. For me, all of the hands where a pass if offered as plausible at second call would merit a pass by me at first call at these colors and at this form of scoring. That's just my style.