[mike777]

Mr. Dodgy, on Dec 28 2007, 04:14 AM, said:

it's a cruel game...

I passed, and lost 8.4 IMPs.

<!-- FULLHAND begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> East </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> E/W </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> Q987 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> QT8765 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> 84 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> Q </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> JT6 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> 92 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> T7 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> K86532 </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> A53 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> J </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AQJ932 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> AT9 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> K42 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AK43 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> K65 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> J74 </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- FULLHAND end -->

Several N/S Pairs were allowed to make 4♥, though it can be held to 9 tricks, as can E/W in ♦s (♣s is better. we let them make 11).

Resulting, I know. I'd probably overcall on the South hand myself. In my RL partnership 1NT is 13-15, 1♥ is also possible. Would you?

i can very much understand playing 1d on defense and going minus 150 or 130

[jdonn]

South had an auto-double.

[jdonn]

mike777, on Dec 28 2007, 04:03 AM, said:

if you guys expect partner to pass many 14 hcp  at fav vul .....ok?

Who said many? I said that particular one.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Dec 28 2007, 12:49 PM, said:

South had an auto-double.

In the old days, hands like S's were automatic passes. But that dated from an era when there was an emphasis on conservative competitive bidding. The modern approach, certainly for the past 20 years or more, has been to get in early with hands like this, and the double is clearly the way to go. Double and then take the minimum possible action afterwards...

So I agree with Josh: the fault for the bad result here lies entirely with S.

[neilkaz]

The text hand given by Mr Dodge is a great example of why South should overcall on his good 4 card suit at the 1 level. 14 HCP and a suit headed by AK and certainly won't mind it being lead !

When you pass those hands, you or PD often end up guessing in the balancing decision and I find that is more costly than the time declarer take advantage of your O/C in the play, or the times PD competes too high with 3 card support (often not allowing for your 4 card O/C at the 1 level)

.. neilkaz ..

[Codo]

The south hand is NO example for a 1 HEart bid. You have support for all three suits, you have 14 hcps. This is an aout double. Rolands hand was close to an 1 HEart bid and it is a style thing if you bid 1 HEart with that hand.
But the actual hand is a simple wtp double.

[neilkaz]

Codo, on Dec 28 2007, 12:45 PM, said:

The south hand is NO example for a 1 HEart bid. You have support for all three suits, you have 14 hcps. This is an aout double. Rolands hand was close to an 1 HEart bid and it is a style thing if you bid 1 HEart with that hand.
But the actual hand is a simple wtp double.

Doubling is OK, my style prefers 1♥, but passing is surely NOT OK. The reason I somewhat prefer 1♥ to doubling is that I have no ruffing values as 4333 when PD responds in one of my 3 card suits. I don't expect to miss a 5-3 ♠ fit since PD can bid them if he has 5 if there's much chance that it is our hand.

[whereagles]

Pass by N and S seem normal. South could dbl, as pard can bid a major at the 1 level.

[rogerclee]

I disagree that 1H is okay by S. Sure, it may not yield a horrible result, but double is infinitely more flexible.

[awm]

rogerclee, on Dec 28 2007, 03:22 PM, said:

I disagree that 1H is okay by S. Sure, it may not yield a horrible result, but double is infinitely more flexible.

I prefer 1♥ over double with the south cards. Keep in mind:

(1) Double gives partner exactly one more option, a pass of 1♦X. Given our diamond holding this is extremely unlikely to occur. So it's hardly "more flexible" if that means it gives partner more options.

(2) Double potentially puts less pressure on the opponents, since it gives them extra bids that 1♥ does not give them.

(3) When there's a big fit somewhere, we probably find it either way. When there's no big fit, double angles towards a 4-3 spade or club fit (with no ruffing value in the three-card hand and likely played from the weaker side) whereas 1♥ angles towards a 4-3 heart fit (with pretty decent trumps in the four-card hand and possible ruffing value in the three-card hand).

(4) Double does give the doubler a chance to bid again (virtually always) whereas 1♥ can pass out. But we're not really planning to take another call with this hand are we?

[rogerclee]

awm, on Dec 28 2007, 03:39 PM, said:

rogerclee, on Dec 28 2007, 03:22 PM, said:

I disagree that 1H is okay by S. Sure, it may not yield a horrible result, but double is infinitely more flexible.

I prefer 1♥ over double with the south cards. Keep in mind:

(1) Double gives partner exactly one more option, a pass of 1♦X. Given our diamond holding this is extremely unlikely to occur. So it's hardly "more flexible" if that means it gives partner more options.

(2) Double potentially puts less pressure on the opponents, since it gives them extra bids that 1♥ does not give them.

(3) When there's a big fit somewhere, we probably find it either way. When there's no big fit, double angles towards a 4-3 spade or club fit (with no ruffing value in the three-card hand and likely played from the weaker side) whereas 1♥ angles towards a 4-3 heart fit (with pretty decent trumps in the four-card hand and possible ruffing value in the three-card hand).

(4) Double does give the doubler a chance to bid again (virtually always) whereas 1♥ can pass out. But we're not really planning to take another call with this hand are we?

Let's say I overcall 1H and LHO now bids 2D, passed back to me. I'm not willing to reopen to find my 4-2 heart fit, but partner is stuck with some 7-count with 5 spades.

The problem is even worse if it goes 3D on the left and partner has that 7-count with 6 spades.

I don't think 1H puts significant extra pressure on the opponents; in fact, it gives LHO a negative double vs 1S.

I agree that I'd rather play a 4-3 heart fit than a 4-3 spade fit, but I think telling my partner that I have 3 spades is more likely to be important in rest of the auction.