[Winstonm]

The destruction by the CIA of alleged torture video is creating a firestorm in Washington - and around the world, it seems, and possibly creating a Watergate-like crisis. An example is this from The Sunday Times:

Quote

Any reasonable person examining all the evidence we have - without any bias - would conclude that the overwhelming likelihood is that the president of the United States authorised illegal torture of a prisoner and that the evidence of the crime was subsequently illegally destroyed.

Congresswoman Jane Harman, the respected top Democrat on the House intelligence committee in 2003-06, put it as simply as she could: “I am worried. It smells like the cover-up of the cover-up.”

It’s a potential Watergate. But this time the crime is not a two-bit domestic burglary. It’s a war crime that reaches into the very heart of the Oval Office.

The full article is here: http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us...icle3086937.ece

[mike777]

I cannot find the quote but it seems the int. committee was told of waterboarding years and years ago. The response was, "why are we not doing more" Not one person objected.

If true I have my doubts about how all of this is illegal.
In any case Congress has had years to clarify and make it clearly forbidden. In fact even today they fail to take a vote. In fact they seem to do nothing on just about every issue.

btw I agree with McCain.


I disagree this will be a firestorm. Maybe it SHOULD BE but I bet this amounts to another hill of nothing beans.

Let me put it another way, does this CIA news change who you were already going to vote for? My bet is it will change almost zero votes from how people were going to vote 30 days ago.

[kenberg]

I also saw this stuff about it (waterboarding and other interrogation techniques) being disclosed to key people in Congress and that the only expressed concern was whether it was adequate to get the needed information. I won't comment on the legality since my knowledge of military law is zip, except to say that I also trust McCain on this. If he says we shouldn't do it, that's good enough for me. Sure, I should formulate my own opinion but I know as much about waterboarding as I do about crack cocaine: I have it on good authority that both are bad, but I wouldn't recognize either if I saw it in front of me.

As to changing votes: Well, Bush will not be on the ballot. I voted for JFKs in 1960 and 2004, and a lot of Dems in between, but if the Republicans can see their way clear to put up McCain I expect he will get my vote. The waterboarding issue is not in itself decisive but it's not nothing.

[Winstonm]

Mike, if you agree with McCain I would think you agree with this?

Quote

Arizona Senator John McCain ® has spoken strongly against the use of torture as an interrogation technique, citing his experience of being tortured as a POW in Vietnam in the reasons for clarifying US Law against torture. His main 3 points are as follows:

First, subjecting prisoners to abuse leads to bad intelligence, because under torture a detainee will tell his interrogator anything to make the pain stop.

Second, mistreatment of our prisoners endangers U.S. troops who might be captured by the enemy - if not in this war, then in the next.

And third, prisoner abuses exact on us a terrible toll in the war of ideas, because inevitably these abuses become public. When they do, the cruel actions of a few darken the reputation of our country in the eyes of millions. American values should win against all others in any war of ideas, and we can't let prisoner abuse tarnish our image.”

President Bush signed the McCain Act into law but issued a signing statement:

Quote

President Bush issued a signing statement that indicated he would follow this law when it did not conflict with national security.

So when the President issues a signing statement that he will not follow the law, and a subsequent video shows proof of this claim, it would appear beyond a reasonable doubt that the President condoned an illegal act - of course, then the tapes disappeared.

This time the firestorm may well occur, for this is not solely in the hands of Congress or the Justice Department but has reached the judiciary - and the judicial system does not tolerate well obstruction of justice.

Once again, a coverup attempt may turn out to be the prosecutable crime.

[mike777]

"This time the firestorm may well occur,"

We agree to disagree.

I will stick with my bet this will be headlines for awhile and go away into nothingness. This whole CIA thing will change no votes and nothing that affects our lives.

Yes, I agree with McCain, or as Kenberg put it, I trust him on this issue.

[han]

I have seen you write "We agree to disagree" a lot lately. What does it mean?

[mike777]

BTW just as a counterargument see below as I try and argue both sides.

CIA agents and other top officials state, "Waterboarding saved American lives. This is a fact." "IT saved thousands of lives"

WinstonM do you disagree that this is a fact or that is just does not matter if true or not?


http://en.wikipedia....ree_to_disagree

[Winstonm]

mike777, on Dec 23 2007, 11:00 PM, said:

BTW just as a counter argument. I try and argue both sides.

CIA agents and other top officials state, "Waterboarding saved American lives. This is a fact." "IT saved thousands of lives"

WinstonM do you disagree that this is a fact or that is just does not matter if true or not?

I agree with McCain on this issue.

Quote

First, subjecting prisoners to abuse leads to bad intelligence, because under torture a detainee will tell his interrogator anything to make the pain stop.

[mike777]

Winstonm, on Dec 23 2007, 11:02 PM, said:

mike777, on Dec 23 2007, 11:00 PM, said:

BTW just as a counter argument. I try and argue both sides.

CIA agents and other top officials state, "Waterboarding saved American lives. This is a fact." "IT saved thousands of lives"

WinstonM do  you disagree that this is a fact or that is just does not matter if true or not?

I agree with McCain on this issue.

Quote

First, subjecting prisoners to abuse leads to bad intelligence, because under torture a detainee will tell his interrogator anything to make the pain stop.

So you agree this waterboarding saved american lives, thousands, but we should not do it? Or you think these officials are just lying?

btw to change the discussion. I just had a parent of a close friend go into a hospice. That is where you work, yes?

[han]

mike777, on Dec 23 2007, 11:00 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....ree_to_disagree

I looked at the wikipedia article. It says something about both parties agreeing to tolerate eachothers opinions. Therefore, it doesn't make sense for one party to state as fact without asking if the other agrees. Or am I missing something?

[PassedOut]

mike777, on Dec 23 2007, 11:00 PM, said:

CIA agents and other top officials state, "Waterboarding saved American lives. This is a fact." "IT saved thousands of lives"

What is the source of the "saved thousands of lives" quote? From what I read, former CIA agent John Kiriakou made the following points:

Former Interrogator Enters Waterboarding Fray

Quote

– Waterboarding works, at least in the case of Abu Zubaydah.
– Use of the technique in his case “probably saved lives.”
– But it is no longer necessary.
– Indeed, it is torture, in his opinion.

[hrothgar]

Quote

I cannot find the quote but it seems the int. committee was told of waterboarding years and years ago. The response was, "why are we not doing more" Not one person objected.

Take a close look at the disclosure process that is being used. When the ranking members of the Intelligence Committee were briefed on sensitive matters they lost the ability to openly comment on anything that was disclosed to them. Many people, myself included, view this entire process as farcical.

This is not to say that I have any respect for Harman or Rockefeller who were the ranking minority members on the Intelligence Committee. I think that they're both enablers. I'm very glad that Pelosi made the decision to boot Harman's sorry ass after the last election.

As I recall, when this was going on, you posted a thread titled "Democrats Eating their Own" or some such. You don't get to have it both ways Mike. You don't get complain that the Democrats didn't do enough to stop Bush why also criticizing them for cleaning house.

Quote

If true I have my doubts about how all of this is illegal.  In any case Congress has had years to clarify and make it clearly forbidden. In fact even today they fail to take a vote. In fact they seem to do nothing on just about every issue.

Unfortunately, we have a sharply divided congress. The Republican's - assisted by a few Quislings like Lieberman - have almost parallelized the legislative branch. I don't think that we're going to see much progress until after the 2008 elections. I am hoping to see some very big changes at this point in time.

[geller]

Winstonm, on Dec 24 2007, 10:57 AM, said:

The destruction by the CIA of alleged torture video is creating a firestorm in Washington - and around the world, it seems, and possibly creating a Watergate-like crisis.  An example is this from The Sunday Times:

You mean the alleged destruction of the tapes. Since they presumably weren't "tapes" but were presumably stored in some digital form there must be lots of copies in servers and PCs all over the CIA. It's impossible to believe they managed to zap every single copy anyplace.

[Winstonm]

geller, on Dec 24 2007, 08:14 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Dec 24 2007, 10:57 AM, said:

The destruction by the CIA of alleged torture video is creating a firestorm in Washington - and around the world, it seems, and possibly creating a Watergate-like crisis.  An example is this from The Sunday Times:

You mean the alleged destruction of the tapes. Since they presumably weren't "tapes" but were presumably stored in some digital form there must be lots of copies in servers and PCs all over the CIA. It's impossible to believe they managed to zap every single copy anyplace.

Yes, the alleged tapes allegedly destroyed by the alleged CIA.

[Winstonm]

Quote

So you agree this waterboarding saved american lives, thousands, but we should not do it?

I did not say that. I said I agreed with McCain's statement that torture produces bad intelligence.

Quote

Or you think these officials are just lying?

Perhaps they are simply misguided in their zeal - or mistaken. Not everything is black and white, you know.

Quote

btw to change the discussion. I just had a parent of a close friend go into a hospice. That is where you work, yes?

Correct. I am sorry that a close friend of yours needs hospice, though.

[Winstonm]

Quote

If true I have my doubts about how all of this is illegal.

My understanding of the "iffy" part is that the courts forbade any destruction of evidence that might affect future cases.

The technincal issue on which this hangs is whether the courts decide their prvious orders of non-destruction were specific to Guantenemo or whether they should have been understood to apply in all cases.

[jtfanclub]

Winstonm, on Dec 24 2007, 07:38 PM, said:

Quote

If true I have my doubts about how all of this is illegal.

My understanding of the "iffy" part is that the courts forbade any destruction of evidence that might affect future cases.

The technincal issue on which this hangs is whether the courts decide their prvious orders of non-destruction were specific to Guantenemo or whether they should have been understood to apply in all cases.

And whether the courts even have the right to forbid the President from doing, well, anything.

Seems like the system is pretty simple. Congress has the right to remove the President for anything they damn well feel like. If Congress doesn't like the President ignoring their orders, they can impeach him. I don't think there was ever an intent to allow the Courts to do anything to a President that's within his office, and even for lower offices like Cabinet members the Supreme Court is supposed to be the *first* court to hear the case, not an appelate court. So while the CIA janitor or whoever destroyed the tapes could be culpable, if the President directly ordered their destruction there's not really anything the courts can do.

[Al_U_Card]

Hmmmn.....bambo splints up under the fingernails anyone?

How about, popping out the eyeball with a spoon?

Perhaps electrifying the testicles is more to your liking?

And did we mention that the person may NOT know anything or be guilty of anything other than having the wrong name, or look, or religion etc......

How many lives were saved? How many rights were lost?

The shame of the many is only exceeded by the lust for power of the few.

[Winstonm]

mike777, on Dec 23 2007, 10:49 PM, said:

"This time the firestorm may well occur,"

We agree to disagree.

I will stick with my bet this will be headlines for awhile and go away into nothingness. This whole CIA thing will change no votes and nothing that affects our lives.

Yes, I agree with McCain, or as Kenberg put it, I trust him on this issue.

Mike,

Do you change your opinion now that the DOJ has opened a criminal investigation into the disappearing tapes?

[mike777]

Winstonm, on Jan 5 2008, 12:06 PM, said:

mike777, on Dec 23 2007, 10:49 PM, said:

"This time the firestorm may well occur,"

We agree to disagree.

I will stick with my bet this will be headlines for awhile and go away into nothingness. This whole CIA thing will change no votes and nothing that affects our lives.

Yes, I agree with McCain, or as Kenberg put it, I trust him on this issue.

Mike,

Do you change your opinion now that the DOJ has opened a criminal investigation into the disappearing tapes?

NO NO if anything events have proved what I said.

This will be a few headlines and matter to no one but a few people inside the beltway and their families. The families of a few people trying to serve their country and who may or may not have crossed one of the zillion of federal laws out there. Why anyone serves is a shock without a lawyer by their side.

It will change little if any votes. It will fade into nothingness except for a few families inside washington.