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Germans Loved Obama. Now We Don’t Trust Him

#1 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2013-June-30, 19:51

From an opinion piece in todays NYT by Malte Spitz, a member of the German Green Party’s executive committee and a candidate for the Bundestag in the September national election.

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During Mr. Obama’s presidency, no American political debate has received as much attention in Germany as the N.S.A. Prism program. People are beginning to second-guess the belief that digital communication stays private. It changes both our perception of communication and our trust in Mr. Obama.

Even as a Green Party politician, I wasn’t impressed with Mr. Obama’s focus on fighting global warming. While his renewed enthusiasm is appreciated, it served as a distraction from the criticism he is currently facing for allowing invasive state surveillance. He cannot simply change the subject.

His speech caused many Germans to question whether Americans actually share our understanding of the right balance between liberty and security. In the past, we celebrated the fact that both countries valued this balance, and there was huge solidarity with America after 9/11.

But the policy decisions of the Bush administration after the attacks — from waterboarding to Guantánamo — appalled Germans. We were shocked to see this mutual understanding disappear. Now we are not sure where Mr. Obama stands.

When courts and judges negotiate secretly, when direct data transfers occur without limits, when huge data storage rather than targeted pursuit of individuals becomes the norm, all sense of proportionality and accountability is lost.

While our respective security services still need to collaborate on both sides of the Atlantic to pursue and prevent organized crime and terrorism, it must be done in a way that strengthens civil liberties and does not reduce them. Although we would like to believe in the Mr. Obama we once knew, the trust and credibility he enjoyed in Germany have been undermined. The challenge we face is to once again find shared values, so that trust between our countries is restored.

Perhaps instead of including a quote from James Madison in his speech, arguing that “No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare,” Mr. Obama should have been reminded of the quote from another founding father, Benjamin Franklin, when he said, “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2013-June-30, 20:56

It's sort of a sad state of affairs in American politics with regard to foreign policy. Both parties seem to generally agree on unrestricted spying on our own citizens, indefinite detention without charge or trial, prosecution of whistle blowers while criminal behavior from "big shots" in government and business goes unpunished, and a drone program that seems to cause massive collateral damage. Obama has mostly continued the Bush policies in this regard (although he does seem more restrained in sending American ground troops into long-term wars in the mid-east).

There are a few politicians who speak out against these things (notably Rand Paul on the right and Bernie Sanders on the left) but there isn't a clearcut way to vote against this sort of stuff.
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#3 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2013-July-01, 00:00

"I'm mad as Hell, and I'm not gonna take this any more!" -- Howard Beale (Peter Finch) in "Network" (1976).


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#4 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2013-July-01, 10:13

Some of the late night comedians have had a field day with this. When your treatment of citizens and prisoners is criticized by Germans, you know there's a problem.

#5 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2013-July-01, 17:02

The German part of me doesn't trust him now either. The Irish part, which was always insanely optimistic, is more insane and less optimistic than ever.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#6 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2013-July-01, 21:46

I don't get it.

My e-mail gets hacked twice a year by spammers. Anyone is welcome to read mine and my wife has my password. Phone conversations? Anything confidential is discussed f2f with a hand over your mouth ever since Goodfellas came out.

But by all means let's make a big deal out of listening into government "secrets" revealed by people in power who never saw the movie. The big deal being made by people who have not been but want to be elected on a wave of indignation from those who have also never seen the movie.
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#7 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2013-July-02, 03:30

View Postbarmar, on 2013-July-01, 10:13, said:

When your treatment of citizens and prisoners is criticized by Germans, you know there's a problem.

You do realize that Germans are, on average, much more concerned about loss of privacy than Americans, or other Nationalities? Right?
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2013-July-02, 03:44

This whole thing strikes me as something of a game. Every now and then something comes out about spying at the UN or the EU, etc. Then the governments concerned act outraged to show the voters how seriously they take it. All the while doing the same themselves. Everyone knows it is going on; noone is willing to admit it. Storm in a teacup.
(-: Zel :-)
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#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2013-July-02, 06:36

More importantly no one is willing to change it.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#10 User is offline   Aberlour10 

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Posted 2013-July-02, 07:14

View Postblackshoe, on 2013-July-02, 06:36, said:

More importantly no one is willing to change it.



A big part of european public opinion would like to change it immediately, but too many politicans in EU staates think and behave still like vassals of Washington.

I am very curious to the way Obama is going to complain about chinese cyber attacks and espionage in the future. They will laugh him out of the court every time.
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#11 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2013-July-02, 12:11

View Postcherdano, on 2013-July-02, 03:30, said:

You do realize that Germans are, on average, much more concerned about loss of privacy than Americans, or other Nationalities? Right?

I know that the EU in general has stronger privacy laws than the US, I didn't know about Germans in particular. But it has little to do with the joke, which is based on what Germany was doing 70 years ago; when looking for fodder for comedy, we have a long memory.

#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 01:38

Racially stereotyping all Germans as Nazis based on the events of the past is really not at all funny. Equally unfunny would be characterising all Americans as ethnic cleansers based on the removal of Indians from their lands. Most cultures have at least one dark episode in their history.
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#13 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 12:33

View PostZelandakh, on 2013-July-03, 01:38, said:

Racially stereotyping all Germans as Nazis based on the events of the past is really not at all funny. Equally unfunny would be characterising all Americans as ethnic cleansers based on the removal of Indians from their lands. Most cultures have at least one dark episode in their history.

I'd have no problem with that kind of joke. We did it, we have to live with the consequences.

It's not uncommon to hear comedians make jokes like "OK, what's the next Middle Eastern country we're going to invade?" We deserve it.

#14 User is offline   jonottawa 

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Posted 2013-July-08, 22:33

I'm with the folks who consider the German smear both unfunny and borderline inappropriate (I won't quibble about which side of the line it falls on, but I think mods generally should try to set good examples.)

The 'who we going to invade next' jokes refer to very recent history.

I'm not sure precisely how long the statute of limitations on such humor is, but it's shorter than 65 years. Basically, if there's hardly anyone left alive who was an adult when the events transpired, it's not really fair game anymore imo. (Unless the nation still romanticizes or basically condones whatever transpired back then.)
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#15 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2013-July-09, 11:01

Don't kill the messenger, I didn't write the jokes.

#16 User is offline   dwar0123 

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Posted 2013-July-10, 10:34

View Postbarmar, on 2013-July-09, 11:01, said:

Don't kill the messenger, I didn't write the jokes.

You are the messenger? Who asked you to relay that message? I can't quite get my head around why anyone would do that, much less why you would oblige them.

Well, take a message back to them for me. If they want to write jokes, they should come up with some more original ones, that one is 70 years old and isn't worth writing again.
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#17 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2013-July-10, 13:59

View Postdwar0123, on 2013-July-10, 10:34, said:

You are the messenger? Who asked you to relay that message? I can't quite get my head around why anyone would do that, much less why you would oblige them.

Well, take a message back to them for me. If they want to write jokes, they should come up with some more original ones, that one is 70 years old and isn't worth writing again.

If it was over and done with you might have a point but as it is.. I don't know about Germany particularly and maybe not in the halls of government (although I've read disquieting things about Hungary lately) but certainly a significant number of people - and not just in Europe - subscribe wholeheartedly to Nazi ideas. Germany has such things hung on it because it's an immediate connection; the sins of the fathers as it were. AFATG not sure at all that Germany can claim to be free of such groups any more than we can, and Germany may well be more alert to trying to deal with them.

Not too long ago I had a gutwrenching,horrific, unbelievably cynical email forwarded to me which included photos of the death camps. It was a complex mix of lies, half truths and propaganda designed to rouse fear and anger against Muslims. I have no idea why I got it but did my best to make sure that everyone involved regretted it. It was eyeopening just what is going on out there, hard to believe.

Humor is the best way to puncture the balloon of people seeking power and status through the dissemination of fear and anger. If it didn't resonate with people then those jokes would get dropped because comedians don't make careers telling jokes about things that people don't relate to.

Political correctness is not only silly but dangerous, and reminiscent of the mythical ostrich with his head in the sand saying "lion? What lion? No lion here. Don't be talking foolish about lions and getting everyone all upset." "urk. ouch. help..."
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#18 User is offline   dwar0123 

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Posted 2013-July-10, 15:09

View Postonoway, on 2013-July-10, 13:59, said:

If it was over and done with you might have a point but as it is.. I don't know about Germany particularly and maybe not in the halls of government (although I've read disquieting things about Hungary lately) but certainly a significant number of people - and not just in Europe - subscribe wholeheartedly to Nazi ideas. Germany has such things hung on it because it's an immediate connection; the sins of the fathers as it were. AFATG not sure at all that Germany can claim to be free of such groups any more than we can, and Germany may well be more alert to trying to deal with them.

Not too long ago I had a gutwrenching,horrific, unbelievably cynical email forwarded to me which included photos of the death camps. It was a complex mix of lies, half truths and propaganda designed to rouse fear and anger against Muslims. I have no idea why I got it but did my best to make sure that everyone involved regretted it. It was eyeopening just what is going on out there, hard to believe.

Humor is the best way to puncture the balloon of people seeking power and status through the dissemination of fear and anger. If it didn't resonate with people then those jokes would get dropped because comedians don't make careers telling jokes about things that people don't relate to.

Political correctness is not only silly but dangerous, and reminiscent of the mythical ostrich with his head in the sand saying "lion? What lion? No lion here. Don't be talking foolish about lions and getting everyone all upset." "urk. ouch. help..."



There is no irony here in me poking fun at a moderator for making a silly claim of non ownership of their own statement while getting a reply from someone trying to fear monger me into believing that I should respect the moderator's humor least we naively give into the fear?
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#19 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2013-July-11, 01:32

View Postdwar0123, on 2013-July-10, 15:09, said:

There is no irony here in me poking fun at a moderator for making a silly claim of non ownership of their own statement while getting a reply from someone trying to fear monger me into believing that I should respect the moderator's humor least we naively give into the fear?

What nonsense. You must have been taking lessons in doublespeak, or maybe just live in an Alice in Wonderland fantasy world.
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#20 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2013-July-11, 01:56

Onoway, there is a major difference between poking fun at those who spread a message of hate and intolerance and racially stereotyping the inhabitants of an entire country due to events from history. 50 years ago racist jokes resonated with people all across Europe and America. Such resonance did not only remain in hunour but also found its way into the activities of groups such as the KKK. I hope you can see why this sort of resonance is not something to be encouraged.

Germany is certainly not free from fascists either. Indeed, there is a particularly high-profile trial going on at the moment. All the more reason not to insult the vast majority by such association. Poke fun at racists through humour, sure, but do not spread racism through humour. That is not simply PC, it is common sense.
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