[mamo2500]

Scoring: MP

---

1♠(2♥)P P
3♦ P ?


Must I (South) bid or can I pass?

Marianne

[goobers]

No, it's not forcing.

Your partner should probably double at his second turn though.

[jtfanclub]

You can pass. I wouldn't. I'd say 4♦, and that's where we'd play it.

Agree that X on the 2nd turn by North makes more sense.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

you can always Pass, thats your right, Pass
is alway a legal bid.

More serious: 3D shows a good hand, ... a better
hand, than your partner actually did holds ... he
should X, but partner did deny a hand with game
forcing values, because he did not open 2C.

But you have only 1 1/2 tricks for partner and
5D is a long way to go, so Pass is a valid option.

I think it is close, and if you bid, you should bid 5D,
I am debatting with myself, if 4D is forcing or not.

If you play trap passes, you still could be fairly
strong, at least if you hold lots of hearts, so it
may make sense to play 4D as forcing, or it may
not ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

[rogerclee]

First of all, x is clearly better than 3D by the north hand. It is more descriptive, allows you to take preference to 2S with a bad hand, and every once in awhile, allows you to pass with a heart stack.

To answer the question, 3D is nonforcing, but shows extras. I think pass is logical with the S hand, but 4D is possible. I like pass more; I'm willing to compete to 4D over 3H. I don't think 4D here should be forcing, just plain-old invitational to game.

[jtfanclub]

P_Marlowe, on Dec 20 2007, 07:37 AM, said:

I think it is close, and if you bid, you should bid 5D,
I am debatting with myself, if 4D is forcing or not.

If you play trap passes, you still could be fairly
strong, at least if you hold lots of hearts, so it
may make sense to play 4D as forcing, or it may
not ...

Bleah.

You have both 3♥ and 3NT to show the trap pass. You don't need to use 4♦ to show the same hand as 3♥!

I know, I know...everybody has invites up to 3 of a major but an invite of 4 of a minor is horrifying.

What should North do with....

♠ AK864
♥ 8
♦ KQ973
♣ AK

This sort of 19 count is more of what I'd expect for 1♠ followed by 3♦, but it still needs a little from partner to have game.

[Fluffy]

Double is the only possible bid with north's hand, there are no alternatives

3♦ shows a good 5-5 hand, but nothing close to forcing.

With jtfan's hand you have to double and after partner bids anything (if he passes you are happy as well) you bid 3♦ to show this semi-forcing strong 2 suiter.

[P_Marlowe]

jtfanclub, on Dec 20 2007, 09:56 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Dec 20 2007, 07:37 AM, said:

I think it is close, and if you bid, you should bid 5D,
I am debatting with myself, if 4D is forcing or not.

If you play trap passes, you still could be fairly
strong, at least if you hold lots of hearts, so it
may make sense to play 4D as forcing, or it may
not ...

Bleah.

You have both 3♥ and 3NT to show the trap pass. You don't need to use 4♦ to show the same hand as 3♥!

I know, I know...everybody has invites up to 3 of a major but an invite of 4 of a minor is horrifying.

What should North do with....

♠ AK864
♥ 8
♦ KQ973
♣ AK

This sort of 19 count is more of what I'd expect for 1♠ followed by 3♦, but it still needs a little from partner to have game.

You can of course bid 3H, 3NT to show the trap
pass.

But 3NT would hide the diamonds fit, and 3H
is asking for a stopper.
Because you another hand type you could hold
is a hand, which was to weak to make a neg. X
on the 2 Level, but which has enough for game,
after partner bids 3D, say a 7/8 count.
....................................................................
I am not saying 4D is forcing, but I believe one
should reflect for a moment about it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jtfanclub]

[quote name='P_Marlowe' date='Dec 20 2007, 10:30 AM'] a little from partner to have game. [/QUOTE]
You can of course bid 3H, 3NT to show the trap
pass.

But 3NT would hide the diamonds fit, and 3H
is asking for a stopper. [/quote]
I play 3[he] followed by 4[di] (over 3NT or 3[sp]) shows a trap pass with a diamond fit. I take it that this is non-standard?

[whereagles]

jtfanclub, on Dec 20 2007, 02:56 PM, said:

I know, I know...everybody has invites up to 3 of a major but an invite of 4 of a minor is horrifying.

Not really. Point is, since minor games are 11 tricks, you usually would prefer a more shapely hand to support, i.e. a singleton.

As for the hand, recall that, since responder is usually weak, opener's 3♦ can be a bit wide ranging, so 4♦ is more or less what the hand is worth. Could be a big overbid if pard has the sort of hand he has (and probably shouldn't have).

[jdonn]

As most people have said, north had an automatic reopening double.

3♦ is not forcing, and south has a clear pass. If north had enough for game he would have reopened with double (well maybe not this particular north) or bid 4♦ if his hand was too shapely. If the opponents bid 3♥ it's reasonable for south to take the push to 4♦.

[neilkaz]

jdonn, on Dec 20 2007, 11:51 AM, said:

As most people have said, north had an automatic reopening double.

3♦ is not forcing, and south has a clear pass. If north had enough for game he would have reopened with double (well maybe not this particular north) or bid 4♦ if his hand was too shapely. If the opponents bid 3♥ it's reasonable for south to take the push to 4♦.

We agree. The hand is not good enough to reopen 3♦ but I pass 3♦ as responder since game is unlikely and 3♦ may be high enough.

[jdonn]

neilkaz, on Dec 20 2007, 01:10 PM, said:

jdonn, on Dec 20 2007, 11:51 AM, said:

As most people have said, north had an automatic reopening double.

3♦ is not forcing, and south has a clear pass. If north had enough for game he would have reopened with double (well maybe not this particular north) or bid 4♦ if his hand was too shapely. If the opponents bid 3♥ it's reasonable for south to take the push to 4♦.

We agree. The hand is not good enough to reopen 3♦ but I pass 3♦ as responder since game is unlikely and 3♦ may be high enough.

We don't agree The hand is more than good enough for 3♦, double is simply a much better bid. If partner passes you are thrilled, and it also lets you play 2♠.

[neilkaz]

jdonn, on Dec 20 2007, 12:16 PM, said:

neilkaz, on Dec 20 2007, 01:10 PM, said:

jdonn, on Dec 20 2007, 11:51 AM, said:

As most people have said, north had an automatic reopening double.

3♦ is not forcing, and south has a clear pass. If north had enough for game he would have reopened with double (well maybe not this particular north) or bid 4♦ if his hand was too shapely. If the opponents bid 3♥ it's reasonable for south to take the push to 4♦.

We agree. The hand is not good enough to reopen 3♦ but I pass 3♦ as responder since game is unlikely and 3♦ may be high enough.

We don't agree The hand is more than good enough for 3♦, double is simply a much better bid. If partner passes you are thrilled, and it also lets you play 2♠.

Oops..missinterpreted you comments. I do still prefer to reopen with a double than 3♦. Is this decision close for you or very clear to bid 3♦ ?

[han]

Agree with what jdonn wrote.

[mamo2500]

Thanks for all the comments. I'll let my partner know
But next question.... what would I bid if he had doubled? 2 ♠ doesn't seem to be such a great contract....

Marianne

[han]

If you have agreed that 2NT shows the minors then you could bid that. Without this discussion I'd bid 2S.

[jdonn]

mamo2500, on Dec 20 2007, 04:17 PM, said:

But next question.... what would I bid if he had doubled? 2 ♠ doesn't seem to be such a great contract....

2♠ is not a bad contract. Compare to if responder had been 2335 or even 1426 or something, what kind of a contract 3♦ would be.