[gwnn]

1♣-x-1♠-p
2♣-2♦-x

why?

[awm]

Usually when three suits have been bid double is penalty. Also usually when partner has shown a one-suited hand (i.e. opened a preempt, or here similarly 1♣...2♣) double is penalty.

Of course, a penalty double here is more likely to be based on a misfit for clubs and good general values then on a big stack of diamonds, and that's how I'd read it in this auction. Opener can still pull with (say) three-card spade support.

[pclayton]

This is a low-level, non-power auction.

Double for me is just 'cards'.

[FrancesHinden]

awm, on Dec 18 2007, 10:05 PM, said:

Usually when three suits have been bid double is penalty. Also usually when partner has shown a one-suited hand (i.e. opened a preempt, or here similarly 1♣...2♣) double is penalty.

Yes. My agreements say double is penalty once one player as 'defined their hand' e.g. by opening a pre-empt or by a rebid.

[hrothgar]

Comment 1: This isn't a sequence that I've ever discussed in any serious partnership. As such, I'd expect a meta rule like Adam's to apply in which case, the double is penalty (with the except of when I am playing with Sue in which case all undiscussed doubles are for takeout)

Comment 2: Our opponent has doubled and then bid a new suit. This generally shows a strong hand. If you're a Canuck it shows a very strong hand. A case could be made that the chance of holding a hand suitable for a penalty double during this sequence is fairly slim. It might make sense to specifically redefine X as takeout oriented.

[Edmunte1]

The main question that you should ask yourself when you define in your partnership a low level double as penality should be: Is there another way to express a non penality invitational plus hand without direction (for example a hand with which you would have bid yourself a 2♦ nmf)? Here the obvious answer is no, so double should not be played as penality

[jdonn]

I don't understand a takeout double by the partner of someone who has rebid their suit. What shape is it supposed to be, 5422? That seems like a teeny target for which to reserve the double. Penalty all the way, doubler's partner is broke and has nowhere to go.

[pclayton]

If the auction went:

1♣ (x) 1♠ (p)
2♣ (2♦) p (p)
dbl

what kind of hand would you expect?

[awm]

It's not clear to me that there's that much of a distinction between takeout and penalty actually. I think the prototype shape for the first double is something like:

5431
5341
4341

In each case responder has some diamonds, and probably an honor. He's not expected to be sitting on a five-card diamond suit, or something like KQJx... the double is just an announcement that "hey, I don't think we have a fit, I have a good hand and a diamond card, maybe we should defend doubled."

For opener's double I'd expect something similar -- a maximum 2♣ rebid and probably some shape like:

1336
1345
2236

Again it's an announcement: "hey it's our hand, I don't think we have a fit, I have a good hand and a diamond card."

Perhaps "cooperative" is the best name for these. I don't expect them to be left in by a partner who has singleton diamond or unacknowledged three-card support for partner. But they will be left in more often than not. They certainly don't imply "shortage" in the suit doubled (but three cards is quite typical).

[hrothgar]

jdonn, on Dec 19 2007, 01:56 AM, said:

I don't understand a takeout double by the partner of someone who has rebid their suit. What shape is it supposed to be, 5422? That seems like a teeny target for which to reserve the double. Penalty all the way, doubler's partner is broke and has nowhere to go.

I'd argue that double shows some degree of flexibility:

A fifth spade seems certain, along with doubleton club (maybe three clubs)

5=3=3=2
5=4=2=2
5=4=1=3
5=3=2=3

all seem reasonable.

Spades out-rank Diamonds, but Clubs don't
It seems reasonable to have methods that permit exploring a spade fit

[kfay]

I doubled on this hand. Thought it was penalty but was certainly fine with going on.

[dake50]

What's left to try for? 3-fit for S? 2-fit for C? 4-fit for H? stop in D? =do it!
Defend 2D. I don't see much else that has a clear message.

[whereagles]

This obviously depends on agreements. In Robson/Segal agreements, it's a take-out. Likely shape: 5332/5431 and 9+ hcp, probably with some defensive values. (A 2♥ bid would show an offensive 54 or a 55.)

[pclayton]

whereagles, on Dec 19 2007, 04:25 AM, said:

This obviously depends on agreements. In Robson/Segal agreements, it's a take-out. Likely shape: 5332/5431 and 9+ hcp, probably with some defensive values. (A 2♥ bid would show an offensive 54 or a 55.)

This is how I would take it. I think Adam is saying the same thing too.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

t/o.

Why? Matter of partnership agreement.
Playing standard, I would say the double is
penalty.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pclayton]

pclayton, on Dec 18 2007, 03:29 PM, said:

If the auction went:

1♣ (x) 1♠ (p)
2♣ (2♦) p (p)
dbl

what kind of hand would you expect?

I posted this because I thought the answer was obvious. How can this double be anything but takeout? And if this double is takeout, then I find it odd that a double in the OP problem would be thought of as penalty.