[gwnn]

Scoring: IMP

---

p-1♣-1♠-X
3♠-p-4♠-X

all pass

-590-400=15 imp

NS=weak NT

This post has been edited by gwnn: 2007-December-20, 06:03

[whereagles]

your teammates take 110% of the blame for not having found the 4♠ "save"

[cherdano]

Huh, I am the first one to give North blame? How can you pass with 1426 and just one defensive trick when your partner has to assume you have a weak NT?

[P_Marlowe]

I voted no blame.

#1 1C opening is ok, what else
#2 the neg. X is ok, we can of course talk
about 2NT being better, but the neg. X
is not bad / terrible
#3 Pass after 3S is ok
#3 the Penalty double is ok, after all you have
3 defensive tricks oppossite a opener
#4 Passing the Penalty out is ok as well, ok
you have some offense, but you are min,
and your shape is not out of space

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gwnn]

sorry everyone I forgot to say, NS play weak NT

[P_Marlowe]

cherdano, on Dec 20 2007, 06:58 AM, said:

Huh, I am the first one to give North blame? How can you pass with 1426 and just one defensive trick when your partner has to assume you have a weak NT?

And go to the 5 Level, which most likely converts
a reasonable plus score into minus, -500 is possible,
because partner never told you he has a fit for you?

But he may well sit on 2 trump tricks + 1 1/2 other tricks.

Expect no mercy from your teammates, if you go and
it is wrong.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ArtK78]

I see that the panel is not willing to ascribe much blame for this result.

But here are my two cents.

Why is South making a negative double without hearts?

Here is a simple suggestion. Rather than make a negative double, bid 2♠ - game forcing, denies hearts, shows club support.

Now, it is not nearly as difficult for North to bid 4♣ over 3♠. And if South still doubles 4♠, well, that's life.

[P_Marlowe]

ArtK78, on Dec 20 2007, 07:39 AM, said:

I see that the panel is not willing to ascribe much blame for this result.

But here are my two cents.

Why is South making a negative double without hearts?

Here is a simple suggestion.  Rather than make a negative double, bid 2♠ - game forcing, denies hearts, shows club support.

Now, it is not nearly as difficult for North to bid 4♣ over 3♠.  And if South still doubles 4♠, well, that's life.

Depending how many clubs the 1C opener did
promise, e.g. for some, it may show only 2,
some people may require 5 clubs for 2S.

I am not saying, 2S is wrong, but just, that this
bid has some flaws as well.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

This is an auto double of 2 Spade, even with just 3 Hearts. What else? Searching the possible 4-3 Fit in Clubs before?

After this double, North can never ever pass with his hand. This is beyond words.
He has an offensive 1426 hand, a clear 4 HEart bid.
After this bid there is still a big danger, that you reach 4 Spade doubled, but you have at least a chance to escape to 5 Club.

So 100% North.

[ArtK78]

P_Marlowe, on Dec 20 2007, 07:46 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Dec 20 2007, 07:39 AM, said:

I see that the panel is not willing to ascribe much blame for this result.

But here are my two cents.

Why is South making a negative double without hearts?

Here is a simple suggestion.  Rather than make a negative double, bid 2♠ - game forcing, denies hearts, shows club support.

Now, it is not nearly as difficult for North to bid 4♣ over 3♠.  And if South still doubles 4♠, well, that's life.

Depending how many clubs the 1C opener did
promise, e.g. for some, it may show only 2,
some people may require 5 clubs for 2S.

I am not saying, 2S is wrong, but just, that this
bid has some flaws as well.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Let's explore this further.

Suppose we take the 2 card club opening bid out of the equation. Suppose the hands were:

1♦ - 1♠ - x - 3♠
P - 4♠ - x - All Pass

---

Do you agree with the auction? Is there any difference (other than the reversal of the minor suits) to the original hand?

Would a 2♠ bid over 1♠ be more acceptable in this auction?

Going back to the original hand. Suppose North, instead of holding 1426, held:

---

Doesn't North have an automatic 4♥ call over 3♠ after South makes a negative double? On a spade lead, both hearts and notrump make the same number of tricks - most often 9.

But if South cue bids rather than makes a negative double, NS get to 3NT.

I admit that the cue bid is not perfect. But it is less flawed than the negative double.

[Fluffy]

Nice hand to show why doubling is wrong. Because it is overloaded with various types of hands.

2♠ instead would had worked tad better: Never ask when you can show.

Anyway biggest mistake is passing twice with north's hand. I awarded him only 60%.

[brianshark]

When partner assumes you have 4 hearts and bids some number of them at some level, what do do then? Play on the 4-3 heart fit? At least if you're working with a potential 4-3 club fit, you're not looking for a club game, you're looking for NT. I think the cue-bid is far superior to the double.

Having made the double, I think north has a clear 4♥ bid over 3♠.

[jtfanclub]

Call me crazy....

but I just bid 3NT as South (or 3♠ if that will be interpreted as a transfer to NT). I'm control heavy for a 3NT leap, but I'm on the low end for points (12-15), so it should work fine.

Why am I playing around? Hoping that partner started with 6 clubs and 5 hearts?

[P_Marlowe]

ArtK78, on Dec 20 2007, 09:01 AM, said:

<snip>
Let's explore this further.

Suppose we take the 2 card club opening bid out of the equation. Suppose the hands were:

1♦ - 1♠ - x - 3♠
P - 4♠ - x - All Pass

---

Do you agree with the auction? Is there any difference (other than the reversal of the minor suits) to the original hand?

Would a 2♠ bid over 1♠ be more acceptable in this auction?
<snip>

Yes, because it is more likely that the 1D opener
was based on a 4 card suit.

And I would have bid 2S myself in this case.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

ArtK78, on Dec 20 2007, 09:01 AM, said:

<snip>
Going back to the original hand. Suppose North, instead of holding 1426, held:

---

Doesn't North have an automatic 4♥ call over 3♠ after South makes a negative double? On a spade lead, both hearts and notrump make the same number of tricks - most often 9.
<snip>

But if South cue bids rather than makes a negative double, NS get to 3NT.

I admit that the cue bid is not perfect. But it is less flawed than the negative double.

The answer is No, 3H is enough.

Sorry, but the neg. X could just be based
on 6/7HCP, depending on partnership
agreement, which means openers 16HCP
balanced hand (which he would have opened
with 1 NT anyway) is not enough to justify
a 4H call.

And after a 3H bid, responder can bid 3NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

brianshark, on Dec 20 2007, 09:35 AM, said:

<snip>
Having made the double, I think north has a clear 4♥ bid over 3♠.

You do realize, that the neg X occurred on the 1 Level?
4H on the North hand is ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: We had this discussion before, although the mayors
were reversed, and I know that I am fairly alone at this
forum with the opinion that a neg. X does not 100% gurantee
the unbid mayor, or more precise, I believe, that you are
able to cancel the message, that you hold 4 cards in the other
mayor.

[brianshark]

I think the negative double either shows the 4 card major or it shows some fairly strong hand that is good enough to bid again after any support bid by opener. Opener should assume it's the 4 cards in the unbid major unless told otherwise.

I believe that 3♠ takes up too much space and is forcing opener to make the best educated guess as to the best contract. I think at the table 4♥ rates to be reasonable, whether it makes or not, because of my shapely hand with lots of offense and little defence. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[Codo]

Cuebid is so great?

Okay
Pd has
Kxx, AKQJ, xx, Kxx and bids what after 3 Spade comes to him? 3 NT with a singelton stopper? Because he knows that you have a running suit and/or a stopper yourself?

He has
xxx,KQJx,Kxx,KQJ and you want him to bid what? And you want to play which contract?

Yes, you will avoid some silly 4 Heart contracts with the cuebid, but with the double you have at least the chance to find some good 4 Heart contracts when NT is not the best contract. And- as long as the opps don´t intervene more- you may have a chance to show your hand type later.

[Fluffy]

P_Marlowe, on Dec 20 2007, 02:53 PM, said:

You do realize, that the neg X occurred on the 1 Level?
4H on the North hand is ...

And do you realise he passed latter a take out double with a 6-4 with concentrated values?

[P_Marlowe]

Fluffy, on Dec 20 2007, 10:33 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Dec 20 2007, 02:53 PM, said:

You do realize, that the neg X occurred on the 1 Level?
4H on the North hand is ...

And do you realise he passed latter a take out double with a 6-4 with concentrated values?

Do you mean the 2nd doubel?

The 2nd double is penalty.

The first was neg. and did not
deny length in their suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe