[daihill]

Hello from a newbie,
Sorry if this has been done before, but what is "tanking"?
Many thanks (in anticipation)

[Gerben42]

Thinking very long before making a play, you sometimes here "he went into a tank". I guess it has to do with a fishtank where nothing is really going on...

[Walddk]

I think it covers "thinking" and "pausing". A common expression is: "South was tanking (in the tank) for about three minutes before he bid 5x."

South had a (bridge related hopefully) problem and needed some time to think it through before he made his call. The same applies for a declarer and defender who sometimes need to think before he plays a card to a trick, current as well as the following trick.

I am not aware of "tanking" in any other context.

Roland

[daihill]

Thanks very much for your answers, is it wrong to "tank"?

[Walddk]

daihill, on Dec 17 2007, 03:13 PM, said:

Thanks very much for your answers, is it wrong to "tank"?

Not at all, but it usually a bad idea to "tank" and then pass. That may prevent your partner from taking another call because he has received unauthorized information (UI). He is not allowed to take advantage of the UI.

During vugraph presentations I am often asked if a player can think as long as he wants. In theory yes, but they must complete the 16 or 20 boards within the stipulated time, e.g. 2 hours and 20 minutes and 2 hours and 50 minutes respectively, playing with screens.

Roland

[hrothgar]

daihill, on Dec 17 2007, 04:13 PM, said:

Thanks very much for your answers, is it wrong to "tank"?

The short answer is "no"

Everyone recognizes that bridge is a complicated game and that players will often need time to decide what their best course of action might be.

Where this gets complicated is that the "tanking" will often convey information to other people at the table. (They know that you don't have an obvious choice of actions). This conveys whats known as "unauthorized information" to your partner.
In theory, the only infomration that your partnershould take advantage of is definition of individual bids (not the speed with which you make them). Partner will often need to bend over backwards to avoid taking advantage of UI.

Moreover, this can lead to some rather tricky appeals.

[paulg]

There are some world-class players who are notorious for using more than their fair share of time at the table, including Andy Robson (England) and Barnet Shenkin (Scotland, now USA).

It is often best to avoid a vugraph table if the two of them are at the same table.

I believe Barnet once 'tanked' for about 25 minutes as declarer, and then led from the wrong hand

Paul

[Walddk]

cardsharp, on Dec 17 2007, 03:34 PM, said:

I believe Barnet once 'tanked' for about 25 minutes as declarer, and then led from the wrong hand

That is (almost) correct. It was 22 minutes. Barnet Shenkin tells about the incident (was a match in the Scottish Cup) in his book "Playing with the Bridge Legends."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Playing-Bridge-Leg...d/dp/1894154215

Playing from the wrong hand was actually his only chance to make the contract. One could sympathize with a defender who had fallen asleep by then, but he was alert and did not allow it to happen.

Roland

[daihill]

Once again, thank you all

[Walddk]

sceptic, on Dec 17 2007, 04:13 PM, said:

Quote

That is (almost) correct. It was 22 minutes

Actually if what Paul said

"I believe Barnet once 'tanked' for about 25 minutes as declarer"

about 25 mins covers 22 mins, so I think you are being over picky here Roland

Point taken. I should hafe left out "almost".

Roland

[mike777]

Walddk, on Dec 17 2007, 08:44 AM, said:

cardsharp, on Dec 17 2007, 03:34 PM, said:

I believe Barnet once 'tanked' for about 25 minutes as declarer, and then led from the wrong hand

That is (almost) correct. It was 22 minutes. Barnet Shenkin tells about the incident (was a match in the Scottish Cup) in his book "Playing with the Bridge Legends."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Playing-Bridge-Leg...d/dp/1894154215

Playing from the wrong hand was actually his only chance to make the contract. One could sympathize with a defender who had fallen asleep by then, but he was alert and did not allow it to happen.

Roland

hmm is bridge not a timed event? How in the world could this be legal or go without penalty. In fact how in the world could the opp allow such a thing to happen?

Are there different bridge rules in scottish bridge?

[Walddk]

mike777, on Dec 17 2007, 05:08 PM, said:

Walddk, on Dec 17 2007, 08:44 AM, said:

cardsharp, on Dec 17 2007, 03:34 PM, said:

I believe Barnet once 'tanked' for about 25 minutes as declarer, and then led from the wrong hand

That is (almost) correct. It was 22 minutes. Barnet Shenkin tells about the incident (was a match in the Scottish Cup) in his book "Playing with the Bridge Legends."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Playing-Bridge-Leg...d/dp/1894154215

Playing from the wrong hand was actually his only chance to make the contract. One could sympathize with a defender who had fallen asleep by then, but he was alert and did not allow it to happen.

Roland

hmm is bridge not a timed event? How in the world could this be legal or go without penalty. In fact how in the world could the opp allow such a thing to happen?

Are there different bridge rules in scottish bridge?

In a knockout event played privately you can take all the time you like. That's not unique for Scotland. It happens all over the world, also in the Danish Cup where I have participated on numerous occasions.

No other pair will be waiting for you to finish, so you don't ruin any ongoing tournament.

It is of course extreme that a player takes 22 minutes to play a card, but cup ties often last longer than other matches.

Roland

[mike777]

Walddk, on Dec 17 2007, 10:26 AM, said:

mike777, on Dec 17 2007, 05:08 PM, said:

Walddk, on Dec 17 2007, 08:44 AM, said:

cardsharp, on Dec 17 2007, 03:34 PM, said:

I believe Barnet once 'tanked' for about 25 minutes as declarer, and then led from the wrong hand

That is (almost) correct. It was 22 minutes. Barnet Shenkin tells about the incident (was a match in the Scottish Cup) in his book "Playing with the Bridge Legends."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Playing-Bridge-Leg...d/dp/1894154215

Playing from the wrong hand was actually his only chance to make the contract. One could sympathize with a defender who had fallen asleep by then, but he was alert and did not allow it to happen.

Roland

hmm is bridge not a timed event? How in the world could this be legal or go without penalty. In fact how in the world could the opp allow such a thing to happen?

Are there different bridge rules in scottish bridge?

In a knockout event played privately you can take all the time you like. That's not unique for Scotland. It happens all over the world, also in the Danish Cup where I have participated on numerous occasions.

No other pair will be waiting for you to finish, so you don't ruin any ongoing tournament.

It is of course extreme that a player takes 22 minutes to play a card, but cup ties often last longer than other matches.

Roland

Roland KO events are timed events. In fact I have played KO events just last month when boards, have been taken away at the other table. Again KO events are timed events. KO events have time penalties.

[mike777]

Roland WBF Ko events have time penalties. People have dinner plans or no dinner at all if you take too long, people have plane tickets or other plans.

This is true around the world.

[Walddk]

mike777, on Dec 17 2007, 05:29 PM, said:

Walddk, on Dec 17 2007, 10:26 AM, said:

mike777, on Dec 17 2007, 05:08 PM, said:

Walddk, on Dec 17 2007, 08:44 AM, said:

cardsharp, on Dec 17 2007, 03:34 PM, said:

I believe Barnet once 'tanked' for about 25 minutes as declarer, and then led from the wrong hand

That is (almost) correct. It was 22 minutes. Barnet Shenkin tells about the incident (was a match in the Scottish Cup) in his book "Playing with the Bridge Legends."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Playing-Bridge-Leg...d/dp/1894154215

Playing from the wrong hand was actually his only chance to make the contract. One could sympathize with a defender who had fallen asleep by then, but he was alert and did not allow it to happen.

Roland

hmm is bridge not a timed event? How in the world could this be legal or go without penalty. In fact how in the world could the opp allow such a thing to happen?

Are there different bridge rules in scottish bridge?

In a knockout event played privately you can take all the time you like. That's not unique for Scotland. It happens all over the world, also in the Danish Cup where I have participated on numerous occasions.

No other pair will be waiting for you to finish, so you don't ruin any ongoing tournament.

It is of course extreme that a player takes 22 minutes to play a card, but cup ties often last longer than other matches.

Roland

Roland KO events are timed events. In fact I have played KO events just last month when boards, have been taken away. Again KO events are timed events. KO events have time penalties.

You are missing the point, Mike. We are talking about a knockout match in a private house. You may not like it, but it's normal and there is no law against taking all the time you want. That applies in all countries I know of.

When we come to playoffs organised by the federation, it is a different ballgame. Only then is time a factor although you rarely see penalties for time violation in knockout matches.

If your match in a private house starts at, say, 19.00, who cares if you finish at 23.10 or midnight?

Roland

[mike777]

lol you never said a private house........lol
in fact you made this sound like some sort of nonprivate nonhouse event...the scottish cup.

I even asked if scotland has different rules..I guess so they play in private homes with no time limits.

[blackshoe]

mike777, on Dec 17 2007, 10:08 AM, said:

[hmm is bridge not a timed event? How in the world could this be legal or go without penalty. In fact how in the world could the opp allow such a thing to happen?

Are there different bridge rules in scottish bridge?

Hopefully, this time my reply won't get lost in the ether.

Bridge is a timed event, yes. But the laws don't say a thing about specific time limits on individual hands. The timing is applied to the segment (usually, round or match). And even that is flexible, at the discretion of the director.

Consider this: if you always insist on "timely" (in your opinion) bidding and play from your opponents, then some day, when you need a little time to figure something out, your opponents are going to return the favor. Will you now argue that "I'm allowed to think!"?

What bothers me about this incident is that it sounds like Shenkin deliberately led from the wrong hand. I don't know what the laws of the time may have said about that, but under the current laws, it's illegal (see Law 72B2).

[Walddk]

Mike, you must have missed this in my first post about the Barnet Shenkin incident:

In a knockout event played privately you can take all the time you like.

So yes, I did write that we are talking about a knockout event that is played in private houses until you reach the semi-finals. What else can "privately" mean?

And as I said then, it is not unique for Scotland. The Gold Cup in Great Britain has the same rules and the same applies in for instance Scandinavia in various events.

Roland

[helene_t]

Walddk, on Dec 17 2007, 03:11 PM, said:

I am not aware of "tanking" in any other context.

I haven't been able to find anything about the origin of the use of "tanking" in this context. The only use of the verb "to tank" that can be found in dictionaries seems to be "to fill a fuel container".

Some quotes:

You know, just because the Dow has tanked for a couple of weeks now doesn't mean you're allowed to stiff the waitstaff http://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/blog/ar...move/index.html

Powermage006 and Storm053 did a great job tanking for more than 5 minutes each before dying. Which let us kill a lot more TG members. This gave us a very good advantage. http://www.zybez.net...howtopic=972204 , see also http://en.wikipedia....omputer_gaming)

[Walddk]

blackshoe, on Dec 17 2007, 05:41 PM, said:

What bothers me about this incident is that it sounds like Shenkin deliberately led from the wrong hand. I don't know what the laws of the time may have said about that, but under the current laws, it's illegal (see Law 72B2).

There is no evidence to suggest that Barnet did it deliberately. If I had been in the tank for 22 minutes, I would likely also have forgotten which hand I must lead from.

Roland