[Apollo81]

Suppose you held, NV all

♠J9x
♥10xxx
♦109x
♣xxx

The context is that you're playing a strong club system, partner has shown 23+ HCP (possibly a hair less if he has a 5+ major) and you've shown 0-5. No one has said
anything about shape. Your options at this point in the auction are:


edit 2♦, artificial, GF unless partner rebids 2N (23-24)
2♥, 0 tricks for hearts
2♠, GF if partner has 5+ hearts, 0 tricks for spades

Partner's non-jump rebids after either 2M bid are NF.

Which option would you choose? I think all three are defensible.

This post has been edited by Apollo81: 2007-December-07, 13:08

[jtfanclub]

Um, 0 tricks for Hearts.

I'm 4333. Any other shape with 4+ hearts, I can see an argument for claiming a GF across a 23 count with a heart suit. This hand, I double-negative.

[jdonn]

I would bid 2♦. Close one. We do have some useful spot cards here.

BTW on the same auction (I'm assuming it was 1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♣ meaning good, bad, better, worse, even better) we play control showing. 2♦ = 0 controls (then Kokish, or some double negative over 2♠), 2♥ = a king and GF, 2♠ = an ace and GF. I guess one advantage is it's apparently easier to decide if you hold a king than to decide if you have a trick for hearts or not, so at least we know we are making the right bid

[Echognome]

It seems given your methods that 2♠ makes the most sense. I don't get bidding 2♥ holding Txxx. I also don't understand 2♦, since your partner will most likely bid game anyway, but even if he doesn't, you are at the bottom end of your bidding (bad hand, bad shape).

Can I also note that I'm not a fan of the methods. I understand that you will have the auction to yourselves, but at some point we just have to get shape in. I personally like after 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ - ? to play transfers. So here I would just bid 2♠ showing a balanced hand. Note that all the suits are already assigned except NT, so the transfer is mainly to conserve bidding space.

[ArtK78]

I don't understand this. If you have a bid that shows zero tricks for hearts then use it. That is what you have.

I like my 4 card support. But I still have NO TRICKS. Not even a doubleton. If partner has a 3 loser hand, he still has 3 losers. If partner has a 2 loser hand, he still has 2 losers. The only type of hand that my hand helps is one with long weak hearts and lots of stuff on the outside. For example:

AK
AJxxxxx
AK
AK

Opposite my hand a small slam is a claim and a grand is on a 1-1 heart break.

In context, I have a good hand.

The 2♠ bid showing a game forcing hand if partner has 5+ hearts but no tricks if partner has spades is interesting. But is my hand really a game force opposite a 23+ hand with 5 hearts? Suppose partner has:

Axx
AKQJx
AKx
Ax

My hand is absolutely no help to him. 3NT, of course, if fine, but partner knows that already. By "raising" hearts you might convince him that you have something useful, like shortness in a pointed suit.

I do not believe that you have any tricks for hearts, even though you have 4 card support. So bid 2♥.

[FrancesHinden]

On average, I think we round to 1 trick for hearts.
- If partner has AKxxxx he no longer has a heart loser
- If partner has any 5-card holding his chance of a heart loser has gone down a lot
- If he has a 4-card side suit he now has something to do with the long card
- The H10 is almost certain to be an entry, which opposite a strong hand is probably worth 0.5 tricks (allows a finesse).
- The fourth heart may be a second entry, which opposite a strong hand is possibly worth another 0.25 tricks

All of this adds up to about 2 tricks, but of course they aren't all going to happen.

(the miracle hand opposite is, say, A AKxxxx AKJx AK which opposite a 5-1-2-5 0-count can easily have 4 losers, but opposite this hand grand is on a 2-1 break + a finesse)

Where we won't help is opposite the strong balanced hand with 5 solid hearts. But I assume that after 2S we are now game forced if partner has hearts, so we can bid ....2S - 3H - 3NT - P as partner can also count to 9.

[Foxx]

I would think as follows. I don't really like a bid of 2♥ since it's an overly pessimistic view to say we don't provide a trick in a heart contract. Give partner, a bare-bones minimum such as ♠KQx ♥AJxxx ♦AK8x ♣A, and we have a making game if trumps are playable for one loser (a 65% chance, when ♥KQx or ♥KQxx is not all in one hand).

By the same vein, a bid of 2♠ is an overly conservative position to say we don't provide a trick for partner in spades. Opposite as little as ♠KQ10xx ♥J ♦KQJx ♣AKQ the hand is cold for 4♠ with a trump break and diamonds dividing better than 5-1.

Therefore, the preferred course of action appears to be 2♦, and I would probably plan to pass 2NT. Matchpoints vs. IMP scoring could be a factor here.

[Fluffy]

2♥ I really don't wanna show anything at all. Not familiar with the system, but I hope I can undisciplinedly raise to game if partner ever shows hearts.

[the hog]

Agree that 2S is obvious. I have 1 trick for H and probably none for S.
I don't like your methods by the way - prefer 2D as a third negative with opener showing.

[Apollo81]

It's been some time, but I think partner's actual hand was:

♠AKx
♥Ax
♦AQxxx
♣AKx

So you would get to 2NT unless you bid 2♦ AND partner bid Kokish then 2NT, showing at least a 25 count. The field was in 2NT anyway -- 2♣-2♦-2N-p.

[benlessard]

This is an interesting rejection bids methods. I was told that Kokish did some "research" on rejection bids but he doesnt used them anymore. Some players also call them paradox bids. Rejection bids are similar to pass or correct responses.

What im thinking is 2C could be slightly less strong(1.5-2 losers) then standard if holding a major and responses like 2D GF, 2H not game force vs a H hand(could be passed) and 2S GF if you have H but not GF if you have spades.

You wrongside the hand a couple of times however youll get a couple of game that they wont bid at the other table. + you can be a bit more agressive with both majors.

My system used quite a lot of rejections bid after our 1Nt & 2C opening. The 2D response is Invitationnal and opener 2nd bid is in rejection style. The downside are that you give plenty of informations to the opponents.

1Nt----2D-------2H (i refuse a h inv)--------2Nt (i have a bal inv)
3Nt (i accept a bal inv)

Your are telling the opps to lead H in your probable doubleton.


If you are interested in having the complete structure after 1Nt or after 2C (precision) ill be happy to send it to you.

[cherdano]

Fluffy, on Dec 7 2007, 07:33 PM, said:

2♥ I really don't wanna show anything at all. Not familiar with the system, but I hope I can undisciplinedly raise to game if partner ever shows hearts.

That would be quite undisciplined indeed. Partner will show hearts by passing 2♥.

[Apollo81]

cherdano, on Dec 15 2007, 11:32 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 7 2007, 07:33 PM, said:

2♥ I really don't wanna show anything at all. Not familiar with the system, but I hope I can undisciplinedly raise to game if partner ever shows hearts.

That would be quite undisciplined indeed. Partner will show hearts by passing 2♥.

He means that he would bid 2♠.