[hrothgar]

So... I'm vaguely considering creating a GCC legal MOSCITO variant. The goal is to create something that is

1. Fun
2. Legal
3. Minimal memory load
4. Reasonably effective (give the constraints of the GCC)

Here's the current thinking

(All three suited hands are opened either 1♦ or 1♥)
(All balanced hands are opened 1NT)

2N = 5+ Clubs and 5+ Diamonds (~ 7 - 11 HCP)
2♠ = 6+ Spades, single suited (~ 8- 11 HCP)
2♥ = Two suited with both majors (~ 11 - 14 HCP)
2♦ = 6+ Diamonds, (~8-11 HCP)
2♣ = 6+ Clubs (~ 9 - 14 HCP)
1N = 11+ - 14 balanced
1♠ = 4+ Spades, unbalanced, might have a longer minor (~9-14)
1♥ = 4+ Hearts, unbalanced, might have a longer minor (~9-14)
1♦ = 4+ Diamonds, unbalanced (~9-14 HCP)
1♣ = Strong art forcing

Over 1♠

4H/4D/4C = Splinters
3N = To play
3♠ = Value raise
3H/3D/3C = Fit jump (6+ in bid suit, 3 card trump support)
2N = Limit+ with 4 pieces
2S = value raise
2D = natural and non forcing
2C = natural and non-forcing
1N = forcing

[jtfanclub]

hrothgar, on Oct 23 2007, 05:11 PM, said:

4H/4D/4C = Splinters
3N = To play
3♠ = Value raise
3H/3D/3C = Fit jump (6+ in bid suit, 3 card trump support)
2N = Limit+ with 4 pieces
2S = value raise
2D = natural and non forcing
2C = natural and non-forcing
1N = forcing

Looks like a good start....

1. Does 1 diamond deny 4 hearts? Should it? Certainly would make transfer responses easy....

2. If not, is it more valuable to have 4-3-1-5 be the traditional 2♣ opening (allowing 1♠ to promise 5) or to be in 1♠ as you wrote it? My feeling is that it needs to be in the 2♣ bid, not least because you're going to have a heck of a rebid after 1♠-2♦ (nonforcing). Yeah, it makes 2♣ a lower % bid, but it would help out 1♠ a lot.

3. Surely there's something more useful for 2♦ than 6+ diamonds 8-11 hcp. Precision would traditionally have 2♦ both majors, 2♥ natural, though I don't know that that's actually advantageous.

4. I don't think there's a need for a limit raise over 1 spade. I (using Precision) happen to use 1♠-1NT-2♠ as "would decline a limit raise with 4 pieces", and everything else accepting, but you have lots of other ways to bid it starting with 1NT. I like 1♠-2NT being a game force, whether you use to agree on spades or not. Not only does it make my life easier for figuring out whether the auction has switched to GF, but sometimes I have a control-heavy hand which would decline an invite to game but accept an invite to slam.

[scoob]

very interested in hearing how this develops

[Echognome]

hrothgar, on Oct 23 2007, 02:11 PM, said:

Over 1♠

4H/4D/4C = Splinters
3N = To play
3♠ = Value raise
3H/3D/3C = Fit jump (6+ in bid suit, 3 card trump support)
2N = Limit+ with 4 pieces
2S = value raise
2D = natural and non forcing
2C = natural and non-forcing
1N = forcing

I think it's a noble cause, but your responses to 1♠ either have a hole or are not GCC. Maybe I shouldn't state that too strongly as I don't know the rest of your follow-ups, but the one that looks dicey is the forcing NT.

How do you plan to handle the normal GF-ing hands without a fit (i.e. those not able to bid 2NT or higher)?

On the GCC it states:

Quote

2. ONE NOTRUMP response to a major suit opening bid forcing one
round; cannot guarantee game invitational or better values.

So either you will have to add some less than invitational hands into your 1NT response or you will run afoul of the GCC. If you have some less than invitational hands in there, it seems like it's going to be quite a challenge to sort out all the possible hand types in there.

Sorry, not trying to rain on your parade. Just trying to figure out what you had in mind so that the rest of us aspiring system developers can consider it.

[hrothgar]

Echognome, on Oct 24 2007, 01:52 AM, said:

I think it's a noble cause, but your responses to 1♠ either have a hole or are not GCC.  Maybe I shouldn't state that too strongly as I don't know the rest of your follow-ups, but the one that looks dicey is the forcing NT.

How do you plan to handle the normal GF-ing hands without a fit (i.e. those not able to bid 2NT or higher)?

On the GCC it states:

Quote

2. ONE NOTRUMP response to a major suit opening bid forcing one
round; cannot guarantee game invitational or better values.

So either you will have to add some less than invitational hands into your 1NT response or you will run afoul of the GCC. If you have some less than invitational hands in there, it seems like it's going to be quite a challenge to sort out all the possible hand types in there.

Sorry, not trying to rain on your parade. Just trying to figure out what you had in mind so that the rest of us aspiring system developers can consider it.

A 1NT response over 1M shows one of three hand types

1. ~ 6 - 10 HCP balanced/semi balanced (The same hand type that would normally respond 1NT)

2. Game invitational hands (typically denies a fit for opener's major)

3. Game forcing hand

After 1♠ - 1N, opener will rebid one of the following:

2♠ showing a maximum with 6+ Spades
2♥ showing a minimum with 5+ Spades and 4 Hearts
2♦ showing a 2 suiter with Diamonds and Spades
2♣ showing a 2 suiter with Clubs and Spades

If opener has the weak balanced hand, he can pass any of these bids

If opener has the game invitational hand, he can show a suit or rebid in NT

If opener has the game forcing hand, he can start relays (relays are legal after opener's rebid).

The only really awkward sequence is

1♠ - 1N - 2♥. I'm still debating whether this should promise extra strength so that responder can relay with 2♠...

[joshs]

hrothgar, on Oct 23 2007, 06:01 PM, said:

Echognome, on Oct 24 2007, 01:52 AM, said:

I think it's a noble cause, but your responses to 1♠ either have a hole or are not GCC.  Maybe I shouldn't state that too strongly as I don't know the rest of your follow-ups, but the one that looks dicey is the forcing NT.

How do you plan to handle the normal GF-ing hands without a fit (i.e. those not able to bid 2NT or higher)?

On the GCC it states:

Quote

2. ONE NOTRUMP response to a major suit opening bid forcing one
round; cannot guarantee game invitational or better values.

So either you will have to add some less than invitational hands into your 1NT response or you will run afoul of the GCC. If you have some less than invitational hands in there, it seems like it's going to be quite a challenge to sort out all the possible hand types in there.

Sorry, not trying to rain on your parade. Just trying to figure out what you had in mind so that the rest of us aspiring system developers can consider it.

A 1NT response over 1M shows one of three hand types

1. ~ 6 - 10 HCP balanced/semi balanced (The same hand type that would normally respond 1NT)

2. Game invitational hands (typically denies a fit for opener's major)

3. Game forcing hand

After 1♠ - 1N, opener will rebid one of the following:

2♠ showing a maximum with 6+ Spades
2♥ showing a minimum with 5+ Spades and 4 Hearts
2♦ showing a 2 suiter with Diamonds and Spades
2♣ showing a 2 suiter with Clubs and Spades

If opener has the weak balanced hand, he can pass any of these bids

If opener has the game invitational hand, he can show a suit or rebid in NT

If opener has the game forcing hand, he can start relays (relays are legal after opener's rebid).

The only really awkward sequence is

1♠ - 1N - 2♥. I'm still debating whether this should promise extra strength so that responder can relay with 2♠...

Richard, a forcing NT bid is a relay.

(A relay is a forcing call that didn't describe their own hand but asked partner to describe his hand. While its not well defined, I have always interpreted "didn't describe their own hand" as
a. didn't show any particular suits or features
b. didn't just show a point count (or control count) range
),
So if you bid 1N and then continue with relays you are in a relay sequence that started prior to openers rebid....

Relays are legal at your first bid, just not relay sequences starting then (and just over 1 of a suit openings, its fine over 1N or 2 level openings).

[hrothgar]

joshs, on Oct 24 2007, 03:05 AM, said:

Richard, a forcing NT bid is a relay.

(A relay is a forcing call that didn't describe their own hand but asked partner to describe his hand. While its not well defined, I have always interpreted "didn't describe their own hand"  as
a. didn't show any particular suits or features
b. didn't just show a point count (or control count) range
),
So if you bid 1N and then continue with relays you are in a relay sequence that started prior to openers rebid....

Relays are legal at your first bid, just not relay sequences starting then (and just over 1 of a suit openings, its fine over 1N or 2 level openings).

Josh: I agree that this is a logical interpretation of the regulations, however, it can't be reconciled with current ACBL practice:

If the sequence that I describe is considered illegal because its a relay system, then the same regulation would ban any number of popular treatments such as BART.

Playing BART, the 2♦ rebid in the auction

1♠ - 1N
2♣ - 2♦

would constitute a sequence of relays and therefore create a relay system. In a similar vein, consider the following auction

1♠ - 1N
2♠ - 2N

I know any number of player who use this as an artificial ask.

I'm perfectly happy if the ACBL decides to ban each and every artificial advance after the auction

1M - 1N (forcing)
Foo - ???
In the absence of such a ruling, I can only conclude that the initial forcing NT response is (in some mysterious way) not relay. In retrospect, it would probably be useful to get a ruling from the ACBL on just this subject. Which auction do you think I should ask about

1S - 1N
2S - 2N

or

1S - 1N
2C - 2D

Wouldn't want to run into any trouble from the tournament directors...

[rbforster]

hrothgar, on Oct 23 2007, 05:11 PM, said:

2N = 5+ Clubs and 5+ Diamonds (~ 7 - 11 HCP)
2♠ = 6+ Spades, single suited (~ 8- 11 HCP)
2♥ = Two suited with both majors (~ 11 - 14 HCP)
2♦ = 6+ Diamonds, (~8-11 HCP)
2♣ = 6+ Clubs (~ 9 - 14 HCP)
1N =  11+ - 14 balanced
1♠ = 4+ Spades, unbalanced, might have a longer minor (~9-14)
1♥ = 4+ Hearts, unbalanced, might have a longer minor (~9-14)
1♦ = 4+ Diamonds, unbalanced (~9-14 HCP)
1♣ = Strong art forcing

I have thought a fair bit about GCC systems similar to the one you describe, although I took a more 5-card-majors approach. A number of things occur to me, in no particular order.

- I guess you're putting all the 5M332 hands into 1NT, and playing 1♣ as 15+

- is 1♠-2♥ also NF? It seems to fit the style of your system, but you left it out. There might be reasons for having 1♠-2♥ be GF or F1 instead though (emphasizing major suit game bidding), so I didn't want to take that for granted. Do you have in mind the standards for your 2/1 NF bids? If you wait for 6 card suits (or very good 5's), you won't have them come up much but to require less seems risky fit-wise.

- As mentioned, I'm not sure the weak 2♦ opening helps your system much. The sequence 1♦-1M-2♦ is a little sounder I guess, but it seems reasonable to have it be wide ranging as a rebid and let responder invite if the extra 2♦ opening can help your system elsewhere. In a canape system, it's not like you have to worry about 4♥=5♦ hands getting stuck with a 2♦ rebid after 1♦-1♠.

- when you say "2♥ both majors," which shapes are you including? All 5/4's or better, or only certain ones like 4=5 but not 5=4? What about ones with two card differences in suits, like 6=4 and 4=6? Since you're playing 2♥ currently as a real opening (not a preempt) with both majors, it might be worth giving up the NF nature of 2♥ and use 2♦ for the majors and play 2♥ similar to your 2♠ opening if that would be helpful.

- Like you, I included the same 3 hand types into the forcing NT response to 1M when playing 2/1 NF (balanced constructive values, almost all invites without a fit, almost all GF's without a fit). I think you probably still want the constructive balanced hand to be able to correct to opener's original suit with a doubleton though, e.g. 1M-1N-2C-2M.

- The potential canape major/minor hands seem like they will have some trouble stopping in the right strain after 1M-1N-2m. Even assuming a preference to 2M is allowed with the (semi)balanced 6-10 hand, opener could be anywhere from 4M=5m to 7M=4m.

- If you want a relay asking bid after 1M-1N-2Y, I suggest the cheapest new suit. This will work fine together with your 2/1 NF responses. You may want to play 1♠-2♣ specifically as either invitational or (constructive to invitational). This will solve the problem of what your relay is after 1♠-1N-2♥, assuming you want 2♠ as a preference (and assuming the sequence showing both majors is possible given your 2♥ opening). more discussion here of this idea.

- My understanding of 1♠-1NT(forcing)-2X(natural)-relay asking bid would probably be fine GCC*. I would alert the 1NT response as "forcing, denies a fit, could be GF" or something similar to distinguish it from the "normal" forcing NT which typically doesn't have many GF hands.

- Lastly, and most importantly, I would like to see a good system for how you intend to handle the GF hands in the forcing NT. This is probably possible, but likely complicated. Like I said, I used similar methods and bid lots of hands using the cheapest new suit by responder as GF relay after the forcing NT, but the auctions got fairly tricky. It was certainly hard to find the 3=5 heart fit after 1♠-1N-2♦-2♥(art GF) and start cuebidding at any reasonable level, and that's not the worst sequence either. If you want to explore for slams too, trying to include aspects of both opener's shape and his value range (9-11 vs 12-14) in his responses to the relay get pretty tough with the limited space below 3NT.

Good luck with your efforts! Feel free to drop me a PM/email if you want to discuss any other aspects of this type of system.

* - by this I mean that in practice no one will care/complain if you play this, and that other popular existing systems do similar things (as you mention). I seriously doubt asking for a ruling from the ACBL will accomplish anything and at worst it would get them to prohibit something that would have been 99.5% playable without asking.

[awm]

At one point I was working with a system something like this. I basically used:

1♦ - 1♠: all natural, 4+ cards, could have a longer club suit
2-level openings mostly natural and intermediate (6+)

The followups to 1♠ were:

1NT = GF (any) or "serious" invite (like 14-15) or 3-card LR, or weak three-suiter short ♠ or weak with ♦+♥. Opener rebids fairly naturally. Continuations are:
-----> opener rebids 2♣, pass with weak three-suiter, 2♦ is symmetric-style GF relay, 2♥ is weak reds, 2♠ is 3-card LR, 2NT+ is "serious" invite and natural.
-----> opener rebids 2♦, pass with the weak hands, 2♥ is symmetric-style GF relay, 2♠ is 3-card LR, 2NT+ is "serious" invite and natural.
-----> opener rebids 2♥, this is 4♥ and 5+♠, pass with weak hands, 2♠ is symmetric-style GF relay, 3♠ is 3-card LR, else 2NT+ is natural invite
-----> opener rebids 2♠, since the 6+ spade hand is opening 2♠ this is artificial showing 5/5 or more in the majors, 2nt is symmetric-style GF relay, 3-level new suit bids are natural invite, 3♥ and 3♠ are mild invites ("serious" invite with major suit fit tend to upgrade to GF)

2♣ = 3+ club, rarely passed, could be weak balanced with 2♠, or a mild balanced invite with 2♠(12-13), or various natural hands with 5+♣. Opener passes with 4♠, 5+♣, and a minimum or otherwise bids 2-red naturally, 2♠ to show 5♠/4♣ minimum, or 2NT/3♣ to show a very maximum hand with 5♠+4♣ or 4♠+5♣ respectively, or jump to the three-level to show a good maximum (natural). Continuations:
------> opener rebids 2-red, weak hands can pass if this is a decent fit or correct to 2♠ knowing opener has five-plus, raising or bidding 2NT is invitational.
------> opener rebids 2♠, responder can pass even with an invite (this rebid shows min) or correct to 3♣. 2NT shows an invite with real clubs (interest in 5♣ perhaps with a big fit)
------> opener rebids 2NT/3♣, passing or bidding 3♣ are the weak actions, other bids are generally stopper-showing and looking for 3NT

2red = natural, NF but can be mildly invitational (serious invites go through 2NT)

[Free]

hrothgar, on Oct 24 2007, 12:01 AM, said:

After 1♠ - 1N, opener will rebid one of the following:

2♠ showing a maximum with 6+ Spades
2♥ showing a minimum with 5+ Spades and 4 Hearts
2♦ showing a 2 suiter with Diamonds and Spades
2♣ showing a 2 suiter with Clubs and Spades

If opener has the weak balanced hand, he can pass any of these bids

If opener has the game invitational hand, he can show a suit or rebid in NT

If opener has the game forcing hand, he can start relays (relays are legal after opener's rebid).

The only really awkward sequence is

1♠ - 1N - 2♥. I'm still debating whether this should promise extra strength so that responder can relay with 2♠...

why do you open 2♥ with a 2-suiter in the Majors if you're rebidding 2♥ with the same handtype? You might want to change the point range of a 2♥ opening to 8-11 and rebidding 2♥ with a good opener...

[hrothgar]

Free, on Oct 24 2007, 09:36 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 24 2007, 12:01 AM, said:

After 1♠ - 1N, opener will rebid one of the following:

2♠ showing a maximum with 6+ Spades
2♥ showing a minimum with 5+ Spades and 4 Hearts
2♦ showing a 2 suiter with Diamonds and Spades
2♣ showing a 2 suiter with Clubs and Spades

If opener has the weak balanced hand, he can pass any of these bids

If opener has the game invitational hand, he can show a suit or rebid in NT

If opener has the game forcing hand, he can start relays (relays are legal after opener's rebid).

The only really awkward sequence is

1♠ - 1N - 2♥.  I'm still debating whether this should promise extra strength so that responder can relay with 2♠...

why do you open 2♥ with a 2-suiter in the Majors if you're rebidding 2♥ with the same handtype? You might want to change the point range of a 2♥ opening to 8-11 and rebidding 2♥ with a good opener...

I'd love to drop 2♥ to 8-11, but its not legal :-(

[helene_t]

Richard, sorry for this negative response, but .... why don't you just play SAYC when in ACBL and then participate in as many sensible-regulation events as possible? Iceland and Curacao are not so far away

Too bad I didn't get the job in Boston, I would love to help you setting up a non-ACBL bridge club.

[hrothgar]

helene_t, on Oct 24 2007, 02:07 PM, said:

Richard, sorry for this negative response, but .... why don't you just play SAYC when in ACBL and then participate in as many sensible-regulation events as possible? Iceland and Curacao are not so far away

Too bad I didn't get the job in Boston, I would love to help you setting up a non-ACBL bridge club.

The MIT bridge club is (essentially) ACBL free. It doesn't enforce any convention restrictions regardless of the event (GNT qualifiers, etc)

As to the deeper question: Life's too short to play SAYC (or 2/1 GF). I'm not comfortable with the theoretical underpinnings of either system. Every time that I am forced to pass holding a nice shapely 5=4=3=1 nice count something dies inside me.

[joshs]

hrothgar, on Oct 23 2007, 07:33 PM, said:

joshs, on Oct 24 2007, 03:05 AM, said:

Richard, a forcing NT bid is a relay.

(A relay is a forcing call that didn't describe their own hand but asked partner to describe his hand. While its not well defined, I have always interpreted "didn't describe their own hand"  as
a. didn't show any particular suits or features
b. didn't just show a point count (or control count) range
),
So if you bid 1N and then continue with relays you are in a relay sequence that started prior to openers rebid....

Relays are legal at your first bid, just not relay sequences starting then (and just over 1 of a suit openings, its fine over 1N or 2 level openings).

Josh: I agree that this is a logical interpretation of the regulations, however, it can't be reconciled with current ACBL practice:

If the sequence that I describe is considered illegal because its a relay system, then the same regulation would ban any number of popular treatments such as BART.

Playing BART, the 2♦ rebid in the auction

1♠ - 1N
2♣ - 2♦

would constitute a sequence of relays and therefore create a relay system. In a similar vein, consider the following auction

1♠ - 1N
2♠ - 2N

I know any number of player who use this as an artificial ask.

I'm perfectly happy if the ACBL decides to ban each and every artificial advance after the auction

1M - 1N (forcing)
Foo - ???
In the absence of such a ruling, I can only conclude that the initial forcing NT response is (in some mysterious way) not relay. In retrospect, it would probably be useful to get a ruling from the ACBL on just this subject. Which auction do you think I should ask about

1S - 1N
2S - 2N

or

1S - 1N
2C - 2D

Wouldn't want to run into any trouble from the tournament directors...

Hey Richard,

One of the reasons that the rules are so confusing is that no one seems to use bridge vocabulary correctly.

Relay- A bid that asks partner to describe HIS hand but doesn't describe yours

Puppet- A bid thats asks partner to bid the next step (a Relay) so that you can show YOUR hand

Marrionette (Jeff Rueben's term)- A Kind of Puppet where one of the possible responses to partner's requested relay is PASS

When you puppet, you have just a limited number of hand types ( since there are a limited number of response you can make next round), so partner can take that into account and bid something other then the relay. For Marrionette's its much for frequent for responder to not relay, and as a result, by inference, bidding the relay actually shows something about your hand.

The sequence
1S-3N(10-12 with an unspecified splinter) is a puppet. if openers wants to know which signleton he relays.

In Walsh Relays 2D (over 1N) is a puppet (technically a marrionette), 2H is a relay, 2S is again a puppet (showing some minor), 2N is a relay, and then finally responder shows what he has....

In Bart, 1S-1N-2C-2D is a puppet (technically a marrionette) not a relay. The relay is the 2H response to 2D. Since its a marrionette, opener only relays if he is willing to be passed there.

Again, as far as I understand the prohibitions on a sequence of relays, are with 1 player taking captaincy and repeatidly relaying and not describing his own hand at all (no bids that make any suggestion of strain or level). I don't think there being relay bids by different players in the course of an auction is a relay sequence.

As to your other auction,

If you play that 1H-1N-2H-2N is truely a relay and does not suggest strain or level, so that sequences such as 1H-1N-2H-2N-3D-6S are truely possible then you have in fact described a relay system which is prohibited. The more common treatments are:
a. 2N is a heart raise, although might have only 1 or 2 hearts and is trying to decide if they should play NT instead. I.E. 2N does make a strain suggestion
b. 2N is explicitly offering a choice between NT and hearts
c. 2N explicity denies 3 hearts and is natural and forcing, but perhaps the responses are ART

I also think there is a big difference between a 1N response thats say 6-11ish (the way most people play 2/1) and a 1N bid thats unlimited and one thats both unlimited and where almost every combination of shapes and points are possible. But this is another can of worms that I didn't really want to get into...

[helene_t]

Have you had a look at Auken/vonArnim's notes? (not sure if they are online). What you describe reminds on their system.

As for this GCC thing: I dunno anything about the ACBL so I may be wrong, but my guess would be that the average GCC director would not be able to follow this discussion. Even if you stay on the right side of the regulations, you could still get troubles with nasty opps and/or TDs who think you violated the rules.

[hrothgar]

joshs, on Oct 24 2007, 06:38 PM, said:

Hey Richard,

One of the reasons that the rules are so confusing is that no one seems to use bridge vocabulary correctly.

Relay- A bid that asks partner to describe HIS hand but doesn't describe yours

Puppet- A bid thats asks partner to bid the next step (a Relay) so that you can show YOUR hand

Marrionette (Jeff Rueben's term)- A Kind of Puppet where one of the possible responses to partner's requested relay is PASS

When you puppet, you have just a limited number of hand types ( since there are a limited number of response you can make next round), so partner can take that into account and bid something other then the relay. For Marrionette's its much for frequent for responder to not relay, and as a result, by inference, bidding the relay actually shows something about your hand.

The sequence
1S-3N(10-12 with an unspecified splinter) is a puppet. if openers wants to know which signleton he relays.

In Walsh Relays 2D (over 1N) is a puppet (technically a marrionette), 2H is a relay, 2S is again a puppet (showing some minor), 2N is a relay, and then finally responder shows what he has....

In Bart, 1S-1N-2C-2D is a puppet (technically a marrionette) not a relay. The relay is the 2H response to 2D. Since its a marrionette, opener only relays if he is willing to be passed there.

Again, as far as I understand the prohibitions on a sequence of relays, are with 1 player taking captaincy and repeatidly relaying and not describing his own hand at all (no bids that make any suggestion of strain or level). I don't think there being relay bids by different players in the course of an auction is a relay sequence.

Josh: I don't think that you are using the expression "puppet" correctly. My understanding is that a puppet forces partner to make a specific bid (typically the next step). For example, consider the following Lebensohl sequence:

1N - (2♠) - 2N

2NT is a puppet to 3♣. Barring further interference, the 1NT opener is required to bid 3♣.

Let's consider a couple of your examples:

1♠ - 3N as a (10 -12 HCP) splinter in an unknown suit:

As you yourself note opener isn't required to bid 4♣ as an asking bid. He has the option to bid 4♠ immediately. He has the option to bid 4 of a red suit. And, if he wants, he has the option to ask with 4♣. I'd say that this is a case where 3NT shows a specific hand type and opener has the option of following up with a relay.

In a similar vein, consider a BART auction

1♠ - 1N
2♣ - ???

2♣ does not qualify as a puppert to 2♦ because the 1N responder has the option to bid 2♥+ (typically showing 6+ Hearts). If responder only has 5 Hearts then he typically prefers to bid 2♦ and ask rather than show. 2♣ can't be construed as a puppet to 2♦. However, 2♦ does appear to be a relay asking bid.

I readily admit, in the BART case, the choice to make a 2♦ relay shows specific information about opener's hand. However, the same can be said for any well designed relay system. Case in point: I have a thorough set of relay breaks defined when playing MOSCITO. Just as the BART 2♦ bid typically denies 6+ Hearts, not relay breaking playing MOSCITO denies a hand suitable for a given break.

For example, in an auction like

1♣ - 1♦
1♥

the choice to relay with 1♥ denies an unbalanced hand with 15 -17 HCP

In an auciton like

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 1♠
1N

the choice to relay with 1N denies an unbalanced hand with 0-1 Spades.

The specific set of information being conveyed will obviously differ from case to case, but the core principles are the same.

[awm]

As far as I can tell, the rule about relay systems in ACBL land does not exist in fact. There are several reasons for this, in particular:

(1) No one is making bids that force partner to make a particular other bid. Such methods are mostly disallowed on the general chart anyway (since artificial non-GF responses are illegal). Typically in "relay" methods the cheapest bid is not forced -- failing to make this bid shows some type of hand (i.e. a weak raise of partner's suit) and so the "relay" does say something about bidder's hand (I do not have whatever type of hand would not relay).

(2) Few to any directors understand the prohibition against relay systems, perhaps because of 1.

Of course, non-game-forcing relay systems are difficult to play on the general chart because most responses to openings which are artificial and not game forcing are disallowed. So in many cases getting that first "invitational or better, artificial" call in there violates regulations.

There are many versions of BART out there -- I don't think the one where 1♠-1nt(f)-2♣-2♦ "forces 2♥" is by any means unique or universal. For example I think there's a version where 2♦ says "I would raise clubs if you have real clubs, please explain." There is even a version Josh Sher likes to play, where 2♦ could be a weak hand with 5♥, and opener's 2♥ bid shows something like 2-3♥ (i.e. descriptive). I do think BART is often a "second relay" rather than a "puppet to 2♥."

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As for merits, I think the 1NT response in Hrothgar's structure is overloaded. It will be awkward outside competition because the need to "correct to the best fit" on a weak hand can interfere with the relay steps, and can be awkward in competition simply because there are so many hand types. On the other hand, I think the NF two-over-one responses are going to come up very rarely and not be all that useful. Note that MOSCITO in its original form uses a 1NT response on weak hands (letting opener describe naturally) and a relay on invitational or better hands; basically Hrothgar's trying to put both of these (and they are among the most common responses to a MOSCITO opening, surely the most common non-raise responses) into one bid. It seems like you can reduce the overload by moving some of these hands into a 2♣ response; for example my suggestion offloads all weak balanced hands with doubleton major (1NT responses in normal MOSCITO) into 2♣, so that after 1M-1NT responder will never want to "correct to the major" on a weak hand (the weak options will have 0-1 cards in the major).

[joshs]

hrothgar, on Oct 24 2007, 12:08 PM, said:

joshs, on Oct 24 2007, 06:38 PM, said:

Hey Richard,

One of the reasons that the rules are so confusing is that no one seems to use bridge vocabulary correctly.

Relay- A bid that asks partner to describe HIS hand but doesn't describe yours

Puppet- A bid thats asks partner to bid the next step (a Relay) so that you can show YOUR hand

Marrionette (Jeff Rueben's term)- A Kind of Puppet where one of the possible responses to partner's requested relay is PASS

When you puppet, you have just a limited number of hand types ( since there are a limited number of response you can make next round), so partner can take that into account and bid something other then the relay. For Marrionette's its much for frequent for responder to not relay, and as a result, by inference, bidding the relay actually shows something about your hand.

The sequence
1S-3N(10-12 with an unspecified splinter) is a puppet. if openers wants to know which signleton he relays.

In Walsh Relays 2D (over 1N) is a puppet (technically a marrionette), 2H is a relay, 2S is again a puppet (showing some minor), 2N is a relay, and then finally responder shows what he has....

In Bart, 1S-1N-2C-2D is a puppet (technically a marrionette) not a relay. The relay is the 2H response to 2D. Since its a marrionette, opener only relays if he is willing to be passed there.

Again, as far as I understand the prohibitions on a sequence of relays, are with 1 player taking captaincy and repeatidly relaying and not describing his own hand at all (no bids that make any suggestion of strain or level). I don't think there being relay bids by different players in the course of an auction is a relay sequence.

Josh: I don't think that you are using the expression "puppet" correctly. My understanding is that a puppet forces partner to make a specific bid (typically the next step). For example, consider the following Lebensohl sequence:

1N - (2♠) - 2N

2NT is a puppet to 3♣. Barring further interference, the 1NT opener is required to bid 3♣.

Let's consider a couple of your examples:

1♠ - 3N as a (10 -12 HCP) splinter in an unknown suit:

As you yourself note opener isn't required to bid 4♣ as an asking bid. He has the option to bid 4♠ immediately. He has the option to bid 4 of a red suit. And, if he wants, he has the option to ask with 4♣. I'd say that this is a case where 3NT shows a specific hand type and opener has the option of following up with a relay.

In a similar vein, consider a BART auction

1♠ - 1N
2♣ - ???

2♣ does not qualify as a puppert to 2♦ because the 1N responder has the option to bid 2♥+ (typically showing 6+ Hearts). If responder only has 5 Hearts then he typically prefers to bid 2♦ and ask rather than show. 2♣ can't be construed as a puppet to 2♦. However, 2♦ does appear to be a relay asking bid.

I readily admit, in the BART case, the choice to make a 2♦ relay shows specific information about opener's hand. However, the same can be said for any well designed relay system. Case in point: I have a thorough set of relay breaks defined when playing MOSCITO. Just as the BART 2♦ bid typically denies 6+ Hearts, not relay breaking playing MOSCITO denies a hand suitable for a given break.

For example, in an auction like

1♣ - 1♦
1♥

the choice to relay with 1♥ denies an unbalanced hand with 15 -17 HCP

In an auciton like

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 1♠
1N

the choice to relay with 1N denies an unbalanced hand with 0-1 Spades.

The specific set of information being conveyed will obviously differ from case to case, but the core principles are the same.

Dude in BART 1S-1N-2C. 2C is not a puppet. 2C is a non forcing call. 2D over 2C is a puppet.

A puppet is a multi meaning bid that is to be clarified later. The puppet might force partner to ask for clarification, or it might not. If partner asks one of the options might be to pass, or it might not be an option.

Lehbensohl 2N is a puppet. There are 4 different lehbensohl auctions (more if you count good-bad).

2M-x-2N-P

2N is a puppet (of the marionette variety since 3C can be passed). The doubler does not have to bid 3C, he just does on all normal takeout x's.

Similarly over reverses, opener only "follows instructions" with nothing special to say.

1N-2S-2N-P

Here opener almost always bids 3C but I have seen other bids made. I think its inane to bid 3C if you hold xxxx AK Ax KQxxx since you can make 5C opposite a lot of hands that just wanted to play 3C and you are safe in 4C if partner has clubs in any case (so I think the correct bid with this hand is 3D which lets you play 3red opposite those suits, but forces you to 3N+ opposite clubs). Others who like to open 1N with 6 solid diamonds think that 3D over 2N shows 6D and 2 clubs.

If you play Leb over a precision 2C, 2C-x-2N not only is forcing it shows values here. Depending on the treatment it is either 3N with doubt, or can be used to distinguised INV with 4 cards or Invitational with 5 cards hands, or distinguish INV hands with COG forcing hands. Again the xer does not have to bid 3C he just usually does.

Another puppet sequence is the so called Kokish relay:
2C(strong)-2D-2H(puppet bid, multi-meaning)-2S(a relay: what do you got?).

Responder does not have to bid 2S in this sequence its just the normal bid. For instance many partnerships who have actually discussed this auction will bid 3m on a 6 card minor and moderate values instead of 2S.

Another puppet sequence is in 2 way game tries:
1S-P-2S-P
2N(A puppet: multi meaning, a short suit game try somewhere)-P-?

Normally responder bids 3C to ask for the shortage, but responder can bid 3S to reject all game tries, and bid 4S to accept all game tries, and he can make other bids describing his hand.

[jtfanclub]

Quote

On the other hand, I think the NF two-over-one responses are going to come up very rarely and not be all that useful.

My form of Precision uses them, and they seem useful to me. 1NT ends up being balanced, a limit raise, or GF. Usually pretty easy to differentiate those.

I'm not sure what sure if 2♣ showing a doubleton spade is legal (isn't that the definition of artificial non-game-forcing), but it seems...odd to me. What strength would it be?

[awm]

The 2♣ bid shows three or more clubs (natural bid) and denies a fit for spades. I don't think there are any real questions about "legality" of a natural bid? There are some negative inferences, but only because GF hands go through 1NT, hands with spade fits raise, and hands with a five-card suit other than clubs typically bid the other suit first.

The 2♣ bid doesn't show a doubleton spade by any means. It's just that weak balanced hands with doubleton spade always include 3+♣, and these hands always bid 2♣ and not 1NT. The 2♣ bid could also be a wide variety of hands with fewer than two spades (hands with 3+♠ normally raise spades).