[benlessard]

Do you think to be able to signoff in 3C is sligthly useful or rarely useful. We are playing weak nt and i dont remember the last time we soff in clubs. Either we wait for the X and pull to 2C or we pass 1Nt. The only time where i feel that the club soff is useful is with intermediates values for preemptive purpose.

We are not playing transfers so for us 1Nt ----2Nt (that do not force 3C) would be useful sequences for something else.

[mikeh]

Almost all sequences are, in themselves, rare. I play 3♣ as signoff in my weak notrump structures, and the call rarely comes up, but it is a powerful tool when it does arise. Further, if you feel that waiting for the opps to bid and then running to clubs is a good method, then you are not playing very strong opps, at least not consistently. The main advantage of being able to jump to 3♣, which is bid on a wide range of hands opposite a weak notrump, is to preempt the opps: to make them guess at an uncomfortable level. You lose this by passing 1N, plus after the opps balance with a double and the next two players pass, using 2♣ as a single suit runout is inefficient. You will have two and three suiters in semi-balanced hands far more often than you will have long clubs, so you will usually find that a more complex runout structure is worth developing.

As for using 1N 2N for something different: I agree there is no need to play this as a get out in clubs... use 3♣ for that. My current use for 2N is to show either a weak hand (that is to say, a hand with no game interest, it can still be 8 or 9 or even 10 hcp) with long diamonds, or a weak minor 2 suiter or a strong minor 2 suiter. Opener bids his better minor, and responder passes or corrects to 3♦ with the weak hands, and bids a short major with the stronger hands.

To show an invitational hand with clubs, go through stayman first (I like 2 way stayman over weak notrumps and have posted the structure in other threads), and with invitational values in diamonds, jump to 3♦ immediately.

[rbforster]

Since you are playing weak NT, I suggest having direct natural signoffs for each suit. For me, these are 2M and 3m - natural, non-forcing, and non-constructive. These often preempt the opponents, either shutting them out of the auction or making it hard for them to get a double to stick. If you wait until they start doubling to run, the opps will have a much better idea of when they can penalize you. Run first, before they start doubling.

You still have all the sequences starting with 2♣ and 2♦ (2-way stayman for me), as well as 2NT and 3M for showing other hand types. Hopefully most of them can find a home.

[benlessard]

All our m INV are in 2D. So these are no problems. Very weak hand I dont want to play 3C anyway. Ill wait opps for X and use whatever run-out method to stop in 2C and let the opponent bid on. So the only hands really troublesome are non-inv but not totally broke competive hands with 6 or more clubs where preempting is important but my feeling is that these hand are rare and do not bring enough IMPs/foot squared. So the bidding space could be used for something else.


Our weak Nt is 10-14 (12-15) and can have 5M and we play a system that is geared to stop in low level partscore (like Keri but better) so we clearly dont have the luxury of having 2Nt,3C & 3D bids as non-forcing.


PS our D sign off is at 2C --2D pass.

[Apollo81]

You should be able to design a good NT structure that includes a signoff in clubs.

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure that I understand this concern. Clubs seems the easiest to escape into, usually by simply passing a 2NT relay to 3♣, whatever else Responder might also have there. The sole cost seems to be in removing ability for Opener to make some call other than 3♣ in response to a 2NT "relay." That may be wasted space.

The greater concern seems to be in diamond excapes.

[keylime]

I like compressed transfers, which allow you to get to clubs via this mechanism:

1NT - 2D - 2H - 2S* (cancels heart xfer, club xfer) - 2NT/3C (bust/superaccept)

Likewise for diamonds, xfer into spades and then cancel. This allows you to play 1NT-2NT as a direct natural invite.

[kenrexford]

keylime, on Dec 5 2007, 12:51 PM, said:

I like compressed transfers, which allow you to get to clubs via this mechanism:

1NT - 2D - 2H - 2S* (cancels heart xfer, club xfer) - 2NT/3C (bust/superaccept)

Likewise for diamonds, xfer into spades and then cancel. This allows you to play 1NT-2NT as a direct natural invite.

How do you deal with super-acceptances?

On a less-serious note, I like infinitely-compressed transfers. 2♦ transfers tohearts, after which 2♠ transfers to clubs, after which 3♦ transfers back to hearts, and so on. I pass when we reach the contract I like. But, when I pass, I grab back toward the bidding box, muttering "*****!!!" under my breath, to induce a double.

[benlessard]

We don't play transfers nor 2way stayman. All our sequences between 2C and 2S are taken for things much more important then a Club Soff. So the only spot im willing to give for clubs is 2Nt and 3C(minor suit stayman).

We used to play that 2Nt show clubs Soff or GF so after 2nt opener had to bid 3C. But some tough slammish hands with 6C-4D, 6C with a stiff or a strong balanced with 6C are annoying when you start at 3C and have many thing to show. But if 2Nt is GF then opener can superaccept, show stopper etc.

Considering that i dont remember the last time ive wanted to signoff in 3 clubs + the fact that its unlikely to win or lose IMPs anyway i dont think its a big sacrifice to let it go.

Also maybe playing 2Nt as Minor suit stayman and 3C as clubs GF is better.

[awm]

It's not really possible to answer this question.

I can say that:

(1) There do exist hands where you want to sign off in clubs. Their frequency depends on the notrump range, but opposite a weak notrump they are not that infrequent.

(2) Passing 1NT with the club signoff hands is costly. Most opponents have fairly effective methods over a 1NT opening (even in passout seat) to show both majors etc. If partner has a moderate club fit, bidding or transferring to clubs will make things much tougher on opponents. If partner has a poor club fit, you can easily make 3♣ on hands where 1NT fails (club signoff hands normally have a broken suit that will not run in notrump).

(3) Of course, you always have to consider what you are getting in exchange. If eliminating the club signoff helps you a lot on other frequent or high scoring hand types it could easily be a net win. I will say that "minor suit stayman" hands are less frequent than "club signoffs" by a substantial factor, and that this is true even playing a moderately strong notrump range (15-17 or 14-16).

(4) There are plenty of pretty good notrump structures out there which include a club signoff.