[1eyedjack]

Scoring: IMP

Uncontested, how should it go?

---

Use your favourite methods, but I am mostly interested in natural systems.

[karlson]

I would have the worst auction ever

1♥-2♣
3♠
seems obvious enough
..... - 4♥
I think most people would play this as natural
4♠
opener's gotta be worth one more try when KQx Qxx Axx Qxxx is still a pretty good slam
.... - 5♥
I would probably bid a slow 5h here, just to make sure partner couldn't bid on

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

one option

1H ...... - 2NT (1)
3S . (2) - 4H . (3)
Pass (4)

(1) game forcing raise with heart support, call it Jacoby 2NT
(2) shortage
(3) min, denying a Ace or King in clubs and diamonds
(4) 4NT is an option, especially if youplay 4130,
because after a 1KC response you are able to ask
after the Queen

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Echognome]

Somewhat tough hand and hard to be objective.

In gnomenclayture it's:

1♥ - 2♣(1)
2NT(2) - 3♣(3)
3♦(4) - 4♣(5)
4♠(6) - 5♥(7)
6♣

(1) GF, clubs or balanced
(2) 4+♣, extras
(3) Waiting, typically shows club support
(4) 0=5=3=4 + 1 card
(5) Slam interest in clubs
(6) Spade void, doesn't want to keycard.
(7) Heart cue, denying diamond cue.

This is dependent on responder taking the view that the partnership should not belong in 4♥. But he does know of 5♥, 4♣ and extras, so I imagine we'd be in slam.

In standard, I'd probably repeat the spade cue that Victor does, but maybe 4♠ showing a void. Don't know.

[mike777]

1eyedjack, on Dec 11 2007, 02:29 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

Uncontested, how should it go?

---

Use your favourite methods, but I am mostly interested in natural systems.

tough hand, maybe, I hope it would go

1H=1NT(Semiforce, yes pard can pass, we open lite.)
2c=3h( 3 card limit raise)
4d?=6c?
p

[inquiry]

2♣ - 2♦
2N - 3♣
3♥ - 3♠
4♥ - 4♠
5♣ - 6♣
Pass

2C = a variety of hands, including 16+ three suiter with 5 or less losers
2D = waiting
2N = any strong three suiter
3C = asking bid for shortness and losers
3H = short spade, 4-5 losers
3S = asking distribution and losers
4H = 0(544) with 4 losers (any five card suit)
4S = asking bid
5C = five controls (Aces =2, K=1), so off two kings or an ace.
6C = I have two sure covers (club Queen, heart ACE), and we have three tricks in spades (AK and ruff). Five clubs is safe, 6C maybe on a hook or one of two hooks (if you are missing two kings).

Roughly 50% slam. Guess 6NT is equally as good, and might bid that. PAssing 5♣ is an option, but seems a little timid given the info at the point the decision is made.

This is not, of course, probably what you wanted but this is part of my "natural" system. I have posted on this method a number of times, to read more about it, see...

4441 and 5440 hands in forcing 2C.....

More on 4441 or 4450 hands and 2C

or to see where I stole the method from, visit Chris Ryall's webpage for yourself, his three suited treatment can be found at: Chris's three suited stuff (NOTE, my understanding is that with 5440 and a five card major, he no longer bids it this way.. i still do.

[keylime]

Naturalish bidding:

1H - 2C* (I normally play sound openings)
3C* (extras, support) - 3H* (weaker than 4H - use slow arrival)
3S* (serious slam try) - 3NT* (spade control)
4C - 4S
5D - 5NT* (pick-a-slam)
6C

Ultra (more fandangled)

1C* (strong) - 1NT* (balanced, forcing, 11-14)
2H* (fit ask) - 3H* (5 controls, 3-4 hearts)
3S* (start denial cuebidding please) - 4C* (I have spade control, no club control)
4NT* (odd keycards, spade control too) - 5D* (diamond issues too pard, not signing off)
6H

So, natural bidding gets to the potentially better spot versus a complex system.

[awm]

Some hard-to-believe auctions here.

In Gnome's auction, the bid labeled (5) seems too much. You're 3334 with 13 hcp and AK opposite partner's singleton, you've already announced a game force, and now you're making a slam try? This seems like pretty close to the "worst possible hand" here, I wouldn't be pushing for slam.

In Ben's auction, aren't these hands 0(445) with 16+ hcp, five controls and four losers:

♠-
♥KQxx
♦AKxxx
♣KJxx

♠-
♥QJxxx
♦AKQx
♣Axxx

Neither offers much hope at slam. Obviously it's possible that responder might "punt" 6♣ anyway but it's hardly the case that 6♣ is "at worst on a hook."

[kenrexford]

1♥P-2♣-P is the start for me.

Opener might opt to bid around the void by starting with a 2♦ rebid, which works wonders:

Opener: 2♦ (could be a fragment if balanced)
Responder: 2♥ (agrees trumps)
Opener: 2♠ (spade control)
Responder: 2NT (not two of the top three hearts)
Opener: 3♣ (at least one of the top three clubs)
Responder: 3♥ (none of the top three diamonds, but I do have one of the top three hearts, having denied two of them previously)
Opener: 3♠ (Responder will know that this shows a void when looking at his hand)
Responder: 4♥ (non-serious, not the Ace or King of clubs, no late value in diamonds.

Opener now expects xxx in diamonds, the Ace or Queen of hearts, the Queen of clubs (he did bid the suit), and wasted values in spades. Worst case is the same hand with AQJ in spades. Probably good enough to venture the slam, but not a bad idea to resign. You seem to need the heart finesse to work. You do pick up stiff Queen or stiff ten behind, but you lose if Q10xx is in front (60% against us) or a 5-0. Thus, it seems to be anti-percentage.

Opener might have instead raised clubs (not my preference):

Opener: 3♣ (club support)
Responder: 3♥ (hearts set)
Opener: 3♠ (spade control)
Opener: 4♥ (non-serious, not two top clubs, no diamond card)

In this auction, Opener has the same issue, but less reliably so. He anticipates the Responder probably lacks two top hearts, but maybe not if he has all the rest wasted in spades. Maybe he asks and finds out? 4♠ exclusion works best (if readable). 4NT will still get a "two without" response (3♠ could have been a stiff), after which the same analysis may induce resignation.

[Echognome]

awm, on Dec 11 2007, 09:38 AM, said:

Some hard-to-believe auctions here.

In Gnome's auction, the bid labeled (5) seems too much. You're 3334 with 13 hcp and AK opposite partner's singleton, you've already announced a game force, and now you're making a slam try? This seems like pretty close to the "worst possible hand" here, I wouldn't be pushing for slam.

Actually, I disagree. I think 4♣ pushes us into a slam that's at best on a ♥ finesse, but I also think that North has close to the worst possible hand for us. We have a double fit and North has shown extras and our club Queen is likely to be a big card. Give North say --- KQxxx Axxx AKxx and where do you want to be? That hand barely qualifies as extras (good controls I'd upgrade it). How do you propose getting there? Of course I can see the hand so can't claim unbiasedness, but I do not believe for an instant that 4♣ is an overbid. Note also that opener could have 0=6=3=4 or 0=5=3=5. Opposite either of --- KQxxxx Axx AKxx or --- KQxxx Axx AKxxx, grand is looking great.

[awm]

Echognome, on Dec 11 2007, 01:40 PM, said:

Actually, I disagree. I think 4♣ pushes us into a slam that's at best on a ♥ finesse, but I also think that North has close to the worst possible hand for us. We have a double fit and North has shown extras and our club Queen is likely to be a big card. Give North say --- KQxxx Axxx AKxx and where do you want to be? That hand barely qualifies as extras (good controls I'd upgrade it). How do you propose getting there? Of course I can see the hand so can't claim unbiasedness, but I do not believe for an instant that 4♣ is an overbid. Note also that opener could have 0=6=3=4 or 0=5=3=5. Opposite either of --- KQxxxx Axx AKxx or --- KQxxx Axx AKxxx, grand is looking great.

Does "extras" imply a prime 16-count? I see a lot of people define hands with 5-5 shape and 12 points as extras, or hands with 1534 and 14 points as extras.

I suppose if "extras" means at minimum 16 high then looking for slam is reasonable on the responder hand, but the example hands seem like they have play for slam opposite ♥A and four clubs to the queen and out, so it's hard to imagine opener stopping short of slam opposite a game forcing 2♣ response regardless of what responder does. And it seems like responder is taking a hand with the most sterile possible shape (3334), the minimum possible high card points (13 for a game force), the fewest possible cards in the agreed suits (only four clubs, only three hearts), and wastage opposite partner's shortness (♠AK opposite a void is not the best holding and more than half responder's high cards are facing shortage).

I guess the question is, what hand with four clubs and a game force doesn't make a slam try here? Even this pile of garbage looks to make a decent slam opposite your example hands:

KJx
Jxx
KQx
QJxx

[Echognome]

Maybe it helps to know that 2♣ only shows 2+ clubs?

Opener doesn't need to show "extras" with a minimum, namely because we are in a GF, so over 2♦ (showing a min), responder can bid 2♥ relay and then opener can bid 2NT showing 4+ clubs. So we're back again to our sequence, except now opener has shown a minimum.

But with say Kxxx Axx ATxx Qx, I'd probably start with 2♣ rather than 1♠ (I can always find out about a 4-4 spade fit later).

Hope that clarifies.

[Impact]

Naturalish methods:-

1H (5+H) - 3S (bal flat forcing raise minimum GF)
4D (short S)- 4H (wastage)
4S (excl RKC) - 4NT (1/4 excl S)
5C (TQ?) - 5H (no)
P

Not saying this is a great auction but it is realistic and establishes the likely problem.

IMPACT:-

P (16+) 1S (10-19 flat)
1NT ® 2H (4m333)
2C ® 2S (3-3-3-4)
2NT ® 3S (fair+13+, with 5controls A=2, K=1)
4C ® 4D (no CA/K or AKQ)
4H ® 5C (no DA/K but control in both M)
5D ® 5NT (CQ, 2 of top 3S - has to be AK controls, no 2nd in H)
6NT to protect the lead and they may even lead H!!! note responder could have pointed Js as well. The slam is effectively about the same as 6H and slightly inferior to 6C but has the virtue that the strong hand is concealed and no information given which may elicit a favourable lead (eg H or D).

Interesting because if responder downgrades his hand (wrongly IMHO as aside from the quality of the C, once partner locates 11HCP in controls he won't look for more) to a poor 13 (bidding 3C instead of 3S) having shown his distribution we would stop at 5H.

regards

[Mbodell]

Using naturalish probably something like:
1♥ - 2♣
3♦ - 4♥
5♥ - pass

yuck.

Playing preferred very non-natural methods:

1♣* (16+ any) - 1NT* (any gf with no 5 card suit and no 4441)
2♣* (relay) - 2♦* (2 4 card suits of same rank or minor 4333)
2♥* (relay) - 2♠* (minor 4333)
2NT* (relay) - 3♣* (3334)
3♦* (relay for controls) - 4♣* (5 controls A=2,K=1)
4♥* (relay) - 4♠* (0/2 of top 2 clubs [knows it is 0])
4NT* (relay) - 5♣* (0/2 of top 2 spades [knows it is 2])
yuck, not the answer we were hoping for, and need to now punt and choose between pass, 5♥, 5NT, 6♣, 6♥, and 6NT all to play.

[paulg]

1eyedjack, on Dec 11 2007, 08:29 AM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠   ♥ KJ964 ♦ KQ73 ♣ AKJ5 ♠ AK4 ♥ A75 ♦ 852 ♣ QT93

Uncontested, how should it go?

Use your favourite methods, but I am mostly interested in natural systems.

Apologies but we use Garozzo's Ambra here so not very natural.

1♥  2♣
2♠  2NT
3♠  4♦
4NT  5♣

2♣ = natural inv+ or gf balanced
2♠ = 4+ clubs, 15+
2NT = relay
3♠ = 0-5-4-4, 15-17
4♦ = keycard for clubs
4NT= 2/5 w/o ♣Q

Unable to establish that there is a diamond stop and highly likely that it will be on a finesse, the auction will probably stop uneasily in 5♣.

[Echognome]

Interesting hand the more I think about it.

I wonder if opener had --- KQxxx KQxx AKxx, how many would get to slam?

2 J's vs 1 Q

[mike777]

Echognome, on Dec 12 2007, 05:00 AM, said:

Interesting hand the more I think about it.

I wonder if opener had --- KQxxx KQxx AKxx, how many would get to slam?

2 J's vs 1 Q

this is a big hand...start with one heart and going to rebid 3 clubs over 1nt.

Partner needs to know we have more than some ten or 11 hcp.

I would not do it ..but i bet some start with strong 2 clubs.

[kenrexford]

Echognome, on Dec 12 2007, 05:00 AM, said:

Interesting hand the more I think about it.

I wonder if opener had --- KQxxx KQxx AKxx, how many would get to slam?

2 J's vs 1 Q

Opener has AKx Axx xxx Qxxx, so easily bid.

1♥-P-2♣-P-?

If Opener starts 2♦ (bidding around the void):

2♦-P-2♥(trumps set)-P-
2♠(spade control)-P-2NT(not two top trumps)-P-
3♣(at least one of top three clubs)-P-3♥(no diamond card, oe top heart)-P-

Now, Opener expects Responder to not provide any additional cues, so a further cue would be meaningless. Already knows about the heart Ace, so RKCB would be meaningless. Best seems to be 5♣, an "asking bid" asking about the "keys cards" with the keys including the club Queen. Also finds out about the useful spade Ace.

5♣-P-5NT(two with the Queen)-P-

It would be nice for 6♣ to be choice here, at IMPs.

If Opener had instead not bid around the void:

3♣-P-3♥(sets trumps)-P-
3♠-P-4♥-P-

Same issue, to a degree. Opener does not know of the heart Ace, but it seems rather probable. A 5♦ answer (one) might induce a signoff guess, though, so probably the same auction. The upside would be the lack of ambiguity of a 6♣ call.

[Fluffy]

my 2 cents:

1♥-2♣
3♠-4♥ splinter-negative
4♠-5♥ cue-negative again
pass

[Echognome]

Ken - When you say "sets trumps" in your auctions, does that mean you cannot play in 6♣? Seems odd that responder would want to set trumps in a 5-3 rather than a 4-4 if he has slam ambitions.

So I'm just asking if the only way back to clubs is by a jump at the 6-level later on.