[ArtK78]

Here is a very common situation. My partner and I had a problem with it the other night. Please give me your explanation of the 3♣ bid in this uncontested auction:

1♥ - 2♥
2♠ - 3♣

There is nothing special about any of the first 3 bids. 2♠ is, presumably, a game try with length or values in spades. If it is relevant, we do not play Flannery.

[dicklont]

Seems to me that this says: "Game is ok, please lead diamonds to bring it down."

Responder is supposed look at his spades and sign off or bid game.
The rest is redundant and can only help the defense.

[Codo]

It says nothing about diamonds of course.

It says: I am not yet convinced that game is good even if I like your trial bid.

If it show strength/length/weakness/shortness in clubs? Define it with your partner.
With mine it shows values.

[jtfanclub]

ArtK78, on Nov 28 2007, 10:13 AM, said:

1♥ - 2♥
2♠ - 3♣

I understand I may be unusual in this case, but....

"If your 2♠ is a slam try (and not a game try), I have slam interest and a club control".

If 2♠ is always a game try and never a slam try, then you've switched to tennis. Stick to bridge.

Edit: Actually, if my partner bid 3♣ and we were playing Precision (or any other system where 2♠ cannot be a slam try) I would take it as an offer to play 3NT. No difference in meaning between 3♣ and 3♦, for obvious reasons.

[brianshark]

2♠ is a game try looking for some help in that suit. Partner should bid game with honour fillers in the suit, or shortness and enough trump to ruff the losers there.

Pard has a nice hand but has an intermediate holding in spades. Maybe a doubleton or something and is still not sure of game. So rather than guessing up or down, he is making a counter try. He has ♣ length and wants some help from you in that suit. So if you barely scraped your 2♠ bid or don't have much help in ♣s you can sign off, but if you were close between invite and bidding game or have a nice holding like KJx in ♣s or a singleton and an extra ♠ then you can bid game.

That's what it actually means. But as the above posters say, too much science is sometimes bad because it just helps the defence with the lead and defense (both in what suits are vulnerable / solid and whether this is a tight game or not). Help suit game tries invites aren't all that bad but once partner makes one, make a decision.

[whereagles]

I learned that it means:

"Can't help you in spades, but sure can help in clubs."

[SoTired]

possible 3C meanings:
1) i have excess strength, but no help for spades. do u have help for clubs? the polarity meaning of 3C is the same as 2S (shortness, values, length)
2) rather than jumping to 4H, in case 2S was a slam try, i will make an advance club q-bid
3) ? I can't think of a 3rd reasonable meaning...

Since I agree with dicklont that 3C is more likely to help the defense than provide a more accurate game-try, and #1 seems too indecisive for me, IMO #2 makes more sense than #1.

[skjaeran]

I play this as: "I haven't got what you asked for in the spade department. However I've got some nice values here in clubs that might help you out instead." I've got to several nice game contracts this way with several partners.

I remember particularly well playing in the swedish Chairmans Cup some years ago where RHO opened a strong 1♣, I overcalled 1♥, partner raised to 2♥, I made a 3♣ game try, partner tried 3♦ and I bid a making game - to the swedish RHO's big surprise.

[hrothgar]

dicklont, on Nov 28 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

Seems to me that this says: "Game is ok, please lead diamonds to bring it down."

Responder is supposed look at his spades and sign off or bid game.
The rest is redundant and can only help the defense.

Hmm

Methinks that we quickly wander into a situation very much reminiscent of Zia's "Sting" Cue bids.

On occasion, I might consider bidding the 3♣ counter trial in order to deter a Club lead and encourage a Diamond.

In theory, I have a hand that is good enough to have accepted the 2♠ game try with a nasty Club holding: xxx or some such.... Faking Diamond weakness might give me a valuable tempo

[han]

Not a clear accept or reject, club values.

[dicklont]

hrothgar, on Nov 28 2007, 01:29 PM, said:

In theory, I have a hand that is good enough to have accepted the 2♠ game try with a nasty Club holding: xxx or some such.... Faking Diamond weakness might give me a valuable tempo

That would surely work against me.

[Codo]

So the bottom line of this discussion is:

It shows or denies help in spades and shows or denies club strength.

Good luck that we cleared this up.

[CSGibson]

I think it's a hand that has some help in spades - maybe JTx or Qx - and concentrated values in clubs, maybe AQx or AJT. A counter-try, if you will.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3C shows a non min. hand with values in
clubs.

It is not 100% clear, that responder is too
weak to accept the game try outright.
Responder sometimes also bids 3C as a
cue bid, just in case 2S was a cue bid.

The cue bid meaning of the bid will be an
option if you play constructive raises, i.e. 2H
showed (+7)-10.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikeh]

My thinking is close to Harald's. 3♣ is either a denial of spade help but a hand that would accept a trial bid in clubs (the utility of this treatment is explained below) or it is an acceptance of the spade try and a cue (not necessarily the Ace) in clubs.

When making a help suit try, opener will sometimes have two suits in which he wants help... where help in either suit, if in a sound raise, will suffice. With such hands, opener should make the cheaper try... precisely to allow him a second shot...on the given sequence, if opener needs help in either black suit, he leaps to game over 3♣. If he needs help in either spades or diamonds, he continues with 3♦ over 3♣ (note: this is ambiguous in that if 2♠ were a slam try, then 3♦ is a cue, but the partnership has lots of room to work this out).

If spade help was essential, then he signs off over 3♣, and partner either passes or, if he were cuing with a good acceptance of spades, then he bids game.

[the hog]

ArtK78, on Nov 28 2007, 10:13 PM, said:

Here is a very common situation. My partner and I had a problem with it the other night. Please give me your explanation of the 3♣ bid in this uncontested auction:

1♥ - 2♥
2♠ - 3♣

There is nothing special about any of the first 3 bids. 2♠ is, presumably, a game try with length or values in spades. If it is relevant, we do not play Flannery.

If 2S is a gt, then clearly 3C is a counter gt - good raise to 2H, values in C but not S.

Mind you for me and most players here, 2S would be a puppet to 2NT so we can make a short suit gt.

[han]

Err, for me 2S would be an undisclosed short suit gametry yes. But responder will bid the cheapest suit in which he wouldn't accept a short suit gametry so that the shortness keeps hidden. Same idea, just better .

[keylime]

For me 2♠ is asking for which suit they'd accept a try in. 3♣ would deny a game try in spades, but accept one in clubs.

[mikeh]

It is all very interesting to read what 2♠ would mean in your particular system (and I have played it several ways) but the OP asked about what it meant in the context of 2♠ being a natural game try, not an artificial ask of any kind.

[Al_U_Card]

2 NT would be a game try also? If that is the case (I would think so) for me, pard is saying, if we are to play game in NT, it should be you to bid it. The 3♣ bid then becomes a denial of a desire to play in 3NT, but a counter proposal for the ♥ game if there is a good ♣ fit. If not then 3♥ it is.