[whereagles]

Imps, top team game, beginning of match.

♠ J
♥ Qxx
♦ AKQT98
♣ AKQ

You pard
1♦ ... 1♠
2NT* 3♠
3NT . 4♣

*2NT = artificial, strong 2 in diamonds (~18-21 hcp, good 6♦ suit), game forcing.

The rest is natural. Pard could have supported in diamonds with 4♦ over 3NT. We could also have bid 3♣ (nat) over 2NT.

So, what do you think pard has and what do you bid now?

[mike777]

edit I just saw my hand......whatever 4c is not what I thought.

[kenrexford]

You are playing a strange convention and are lost this quickly? Maybe discussion is called for.

The call of 4♣ could have several logical meanings, IMO, depending upon what 3♠ and 3NT showed.

1A. Cue of first-round control, in support of diamonds
1B. Cue of a control, in support of diamonds
1C. General cue in support of diamonds (maybe 4♦ would be RKCB and Responder wants to answer)
2A/B/C. Cue demanding spades as trumps
3. Waiting, slammish
4. Natural (ugh!)
5A. Gerber (UGH!!!)
5B. Roman Gerber (Scientific UGH!!!)
6A/B. Cue, without specified intent yet

There are probably others.

I cannot really guess, therefore.

[whereagles]

Ken, 3♠ and 3NT were, as I said, natural. 3♠ showed 5+ cards, probably no other side suit, and 3NT just denied a spade fit, with a tendency to have unbid suits stopped.

This situation actually happened at table like I showed it. I'm not asking how you would interpret 4♣ in particular. Just what you make of pard's bidding, and, given that you have to make a bid, which would it be.

[pclayton]

kenrexford, on Nov 18 2007, 12:40 PM, said:

You are playing a strange convention and are lost this quickly?  Maybe discussion is called for.

The call of 4♣ could have several logical meanings, IMO, depending upon what 3♠ and 3NT showed.

1A. Cue of first-round control, in support of diamonds
1B. Cue of a control, in support of diamonds
1C. General cue in support of diamonds (maybe 4♦ would be RKCB and Responder wants to answer)
2A/B/C. Cue demanding spades as trumps
3. Waiting, slammish
4. Natural (ugh!)
5A. Gerber (UGH!!!)
5B. Roman Gerber (Scientific UGH!!!)
6A/B. Cue, without specified intent yet

There are probably others.

I cannot really guess, therefore.

I will opt for the natural, (ugh) interpretation of 4♣. We can still have a club fit here as pard could be a 6-4 or more likely a 6-5.

I think most of Ken's 1's just set trump with 4♦ and cue bid later.

I will now make the equally ambiguous call of 4♠.

By the way, I think I would suggest transfers over 2N, even though its artificial. It seems you can sort out hand types for responder easier.

[whereagles]

pclayton, on Nov 18 2007, 08:57 PM, said:

By the way, I think I would suggest transfers over 2N, even though its artificial. It seems you can sort out hand types for responder easier.

I can see only one advantage to it: you clearly sort out the black 54 hands from 45 ones. 54s transfer to spades and bid clubs, 45s bid clubs (via 3♠ transfer).

As it is (i.e. in our auction), there is a chance that responder has a black 54. However, with that hand he could have bid 3♣ and follow-up with 3♠ later on...

[kenrexford]

whereagles, on Nov 18 2007, 03:55 PM, said:

Ken, 3♠ and 3NT were, as I said, natural. 3♠ showed 5+ cards, probably no other side suit, and 3NT just denied a spade fit, with a tendency to have unbid suits stopped.

This situation actually happened at table like I showed it. I'm not asking how you would interpret 4♣ in particular. Just what you make of pard's bidding, and, given that you have to make a bid, which would it be.

Well, I expected that "natural" could mean a lot. FOr instance, what would partner's 3♣ call have been? Could 2NT feature an unbid 4-card heart suit?

All that said, I expect that 4♣ shows slam interest. That part is easy.

Your calls show 18-21, which is quite a range. If partner has a trick source in spades, something like AKxxxx, and a side entry, like four small diamonds, then he has slam interest.

Looking at my hand, I expect pard to either have really good spades but no heart stop (e.g., ♠AKQxxx ♥Jxx ♦xxx ♣x) or decent spades with a heart stop (e.g., ♠KQ10xx ♥Axx ♦xxx ♣x). I don't know what 4♣ normally or ideally should mean, but it seems like he has one of these. However, his spades may be longer and his diamonds, accordingly, shorter.

I don't know what my next bids mean. That's the problem. I could bid 4♦, but maybe that's RKCB. His next call could be 4♠ as a natural signoff OR as an answer to RKCB; his call might be 4NT instead, RKCB himself or an answer to my RKCB. I could bid 4♠, but I don't know what that means. I don't want to bid 4♥, because no meaning seems right.

I could bid 4NT, but maybe that is quantitative. If it is RKCB, for what suit?

If I had it available, I would bid an "O.S. 5NT" call and make partner pass or bid whatever he thinks is right.

[helene_t]

This is a strong ♠ one-suiter with a club control and for some reason didn't want to start with a SJS.

[FrancesHinden]

Listening to the auction, it's a cue bid for spades.
Looking at my hand i'm a bit surprised to have the AKQ of clubs, but I think it's still a cue for spades.

[the hog]

Stiff C, S cue. I reckon pd has a reasonable 6card S suit here as well. I bid 4D now, hoping to hear 4H. I will pass pd's 4S bid.

[mike777]

whereagles, on Nov 18 2007, 03:20 PM, said:

Imps, top team game, beginning of match.

♠ J
♥ Qxx
♦ AKQT98
♣ AKQ

You pard
1♦ ... 1♠
2NT* 3♠
3NT . 4♣

*2NT = artificial, strong 2 in diamonds (~18-21 hcp, good 6♦ suit), game forcing.

The rest is natural. Pard could have supported in diamonds with 4♦ over 3NT. We could also have bid 3♣ (nat) over 2NT.

So, what do you think pard has and what do you bid now?

5S


Doubt I would have found this at the table.
90% blame partner for making me play this thing
10% me for saying yes.

To be more fair one more example why people play strong club or learn to just live with these type of hands in 2/1.

Every day I am more convinced we(non wc fields) lose over such basic problems...like counting or visualize or not going past 3nt

[Fluffy]

4♦ seems clear, the problem will come next round.

3♠ nat should not show 5 cards, but good 6 cards, with 3 you can just bid clubs or even diamonds or herats and partner will be eager to bid 3♠.

[ochinko]

The only thing partner has is spades - at least 6 of them, probably 7 when the rebid is at the 3rd level. I bid 4♠ - I may be at the top of my bid in regards to HCP but the poor support of partner's suit makes the slam chances minuscule at best.

KQxxxxx
xx
x
xxx

is what I expect partner to have, and any other bid goes down more than one. If partner is better than that the bidding will continue, so nothing is lost.

[pclayton]

whereagles, on Nov 18 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 18 2007, 08:57 PM, said:

By the way, I think I would suggest transfers over 2N, even though its artificial. It seems you can sort out hand types for responder easier.

I can see only one advantage to it: you clearly sort out the black 54 hands from 45 ones. 54s transfer to spades and bid clubs, 45s bid clubs (via 3♠ transfer).

As it is (i.e. in our auction), there is a chance that responder has a black 54. However, with that hand he could have bid 3♣ and follow-up with 3♠ later on...

I think you sort out any type of hand. You can:

1. Show two suiters
2. Establish diamond support followed by cuebidding, or make a mild slam try via a slow 3N.
3. Show a strong single suiter and make pard cue.

Etc..

[whereagles]

Thx all. Most of you got it right: pard has a strong spade 1-suiter and is self-cueing. Actually he has a MONSTER... here are the hands:

Scoring: IMP

1♦ ... 1♠
2NT* 3♠
3NT . 4♣
..?

2NT = strong 2 in diams

---

After 4♣, if you bid 4♦ you'll get to 7♠ easily. If you bid 4♠ instead, pard might be afraid ♦A is out and sign-off in 6♠.. that's what happened at table

Anyway, on retrospect, I think now it is very, very hard that a direct 7♠ doesn't lead to a making grand, so I believe that's the most practical bid.

By the way, pard didn't SJS because we were playing WJS

[ASkolnick]

4C over 3N when no clear suit mentioned is what I call a "generic" slam try. Make the most appropriate bid you think cue-bid, rebid your suit etc and partner will clear up the actual suit he wants to play in later.