[mikeh]

pclayton, on Nov 20 2007, 08:26 PM, said:

Definitely the ♦K but a few bits and pieces more.

The ♠Q seems particularly important.

Yes, it does... but how does partner?

[whereagles]

I don't care what pard has because it's a virtual certainty he doesn't have the ♥K and so he must have the ♦K. 6 is the limit and it's what I'm going to bid now.

If you *really* want to deduce something I guess 4NT is natural, showing some 4333-ish hand with ♦K and, say, two of the missing queens. Why natural: because undiscussed bids are supposed to be NATURAL.

[kenrexford]

I got to thinking about this while waiting for a damned train stopped in BFE, Ohio, while on route back from court. I'm thinking that this discussion is missing one huge problem.

2♣-P-2♦ was a weakish start, as step controls was apparently the approach. Willies, but OK.

3♣ was a big bid.

4♣ was also a big bid, but not that big. It showed a control.

4♦, I think, may have been too big.

Opener has three classic losers, by LTC. But, he also has that menacing fourth spade sitting there. Opposite two nice covers, like ♠Qxx ♥xxx ♦Kxxx ♣xxx, we still need a 3-3 spade split or a 2-2 club split or a squeeze, or possibly a 4-2 spade split with table feel and length in spades joining length in clubs. Sure, odds on, but that's hardly minimum.

It seems that Opener might have justified 5♣ with this hand, unless 4♣ showed one control plus something of interest. I'm not familiar enough with step controls and higher thinking to assess much, but I wonder if the acceptance of 4♦ as a given is misplaced.

[benlessard]

Quote

I agree with Josh and Justin. 4NT intuitively shows the ♦K and 5♣ the ♣K. That's as deep as I think either player should go.

Disagree

Quote

Perhaps the point is that there's a wide range of "one control" hands. Responder could have any number of side queens, and any amount of distribution.

agree 100%

4C is probably showing some extras.

with
xxx
xxx
Kxx
xxxx I think responder should be able to bid 5C. (if they agreement permit it)


But with

Qxx
xxxx
xxx
Kxxx


4C is the correct bid.
However over 4D. If you play that

4Nt show the K of D and 5C the K of C.

It means that with

Qxxx
xxx
Kxx
xxxx

you will need to bid 4Nt ?

How about

Qxx
xxx
xxx
Kxxx

&

xx
QJTx
xxx
Kxxx

are they both 5C bid bids ? or do you have to blast to 6C with 6 pts ?

I think its a much sounder agreement to play that 4Nt is showing a minor control + extras. and that 5C is showing nothing more then the initial 4C bids. Its nice to be able to point out specifics controls but general strenght is important too. Its a quite a wide range 0-1 controls when ur at the 4 level.

Most of the time opener will have a hand where 1 controls is enough to think about slam but rarely enough to bid it. A useful side card is often needed.