[Chamaco]

Hi all,
I have one more question on responding to Takeout Doubles with awkward shapes

Say you hold, all vulnerable:

65432-xxx-xxx-xx

Bidding goes:
1♠:Dbl-pass-?

Among the partners I played with so far, I have found 2 schools of thoughts:

1) you should bid 1NT, as a "desperation bid". Bidding anything else raises the level too high.
The problem related o this case is that the HCP range is not well defined: could range from 0-7/8 HCP.
Pard may have a strong balanced hand, say 18-20 HCP, and does not know whether you hold the above hand (when bidding on, or even doubling to show HCP, would be lunacy ) or something like
QT32-Qxx-xxx-Ax, in which case game is likely.

2) you should keep at any cost the 1NT response as constructive (say 8-10 hcp with decent stoppers, but unsuitable to a penalty pass). Therefore you should strive to bid a suit at any cost; in this case, 2H would be the least of evils.

I'd like comments by the experts on this!
Thanks !!

[Free]

You even have a 3rd school: the next bid in a suit can be minimal and doesn't need to be a real suit. In this case you could bid 2♣, and partner should descide weither to bid on or not. This however I haven't played in a long long time and I didn't get much trouble.

I'd personnaly bid 2♦, lowest longest. 2♥ might be good as well, but you never know partner starts to invite...

[inquiry]

My 1NT response is always constructive in this situation, never despiration.

With the hand you show, I might respond in any of the other three suits. I would probably bid 2♦, but would have sympathy for 2♣. There is a theory that your partner WILL HAVE the other major, so people will bid their known fit and bid 2♥. But as I explained in another post, my theory with these very weak hands is that if your partner has a good hand (and after RHO passed, don't you expect he will?) he is more likely to take a second bid if he hears you bid "his major" than if you bid his minor. And here, I don't want to encourage him to find another bid. If you bid 2♥ don't be surprized if your parnter cue-bids 2♠ or jumps directly to 4♥.... I don't know what the psychology of this situation is, but when we have a "major fit" my partners always are more of an optomist than when we don't have a known major fit.

Ben

[mikestar]

If vulnerable vs not, a penalty pass is a fair gamble -- if partner has a minumum double they're making overtricks, but this may cost less than the set the could have gotten against you. And if partner has a monster behind the opener, you will set them instead of going down in the game partenr will bid thinking you have a few points.

[the hog]

I would bid 2D on this hand. As stated by other posters, 1N should have some values. Pass is totally out re of the vulnerability. As well as destroying partnership confidence, 1S X may make several overtricks.
I don't bid 2H, though that is my second choice, as partner may get excited by a Major suit bid.

[mikestar]

The_Hog, on Feb 11 2004, 11:50 PM, said:

I would bid 2D on this hand. As stated by other posters, 1N should have some values. Pass is totally out re of the vulnerability. As well as destroying partnership confidence, 1S X may make several overtricks.
I don't bid 2H, though that is my second choice, as partner may get excited by a Major suit bid.

Point well taken re partnership confidence but this is most dangerous when the anti-system action causes a loss. Let's look at this hand further with us vul and them not. If partner is strong, we won't have a game because I've got nothing and we can probably set them--in any case they won't make a lot of overtricks.

If partner is minimum, for example a 1-4-4-4 11 count. Yes they will make overtricks. 1♠X+3 gets then 410 when they are probably cold for 4NT with there 29 HCP and all the points agaist them in one hand. And if they make four overtricks, how many tricks are we taking in 2♦X or 2♥X on our seven card fit? 2♦X-3 is better for them than 1♠X+6!

LOTT suggest 14 total trumps/total tricks but it might be 16 if partner is void in ♠ lets assume 15 total tricks.


They make in 1♠X We make in ♦X
11 tricks -510 4 tricks -1100
10 -410 5 -800
9 -310 6 -500
8 -210 7 -200
7 -110 8 +130 or +90
6 +100 9 +330 or +110
5 +300 10 +130

I give two values for two of the entires for 2♦ since they may well not double us in this case.

Notice the losing cases are when they make on the nose and are down one. If we assume 14 total tricks, pass is even more likely the winner.

[inquiry]

mikestar, on Feb 11 2004, 07:27 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Feb 11 2004, 11:50 PM, said:

I would bid 2D on this hand. As stated by other posters, 1N should have some values. Pass is totally out re of the vulnerability. As well as destroying partnership confidence, 1S X may make several overtricks.
I don't bid 2H, though that is my second choice, as partner may get excited by a Major suit bid.

Point well taken re partnership confidence but this is most dangerous when the anti-system action causes a loss. Let's look at this hand further with us vul and them not. If partner is strong, we won't have a game because I've got nothing and we can probably set them--in any case they won't make a lot of overtricks.

If partner is minimum, for example a 1-4-4-4 11 count. Yes they will make overtricks. 1♠X+3 gets then 410 when they are probably cold for 4NT with there 29 HCP and all the points agaist them in one hand. And if they make four overtricks, how many tricks are we taking in 2♦X or 2♥X on our seven card fit? 2♦X-3 is better for them than 1♠X+6!

LOTT suggest 14 total trumps/total tricks but it might be 16 if partner is void in ♠ lets assume 15 total tricks.


They make in 1♠X We make in ♦X
11 tricks -510 4 tricks -1100
10 -410 5 -800
9 -310 6 -500
8 -210 7 -200
7 -110 8 +130 or +90
6 +100 9 +330 or +110
5 +300 10 +130

I give two values for two of the entires for 2♦ since they may well not double us in this case.

Notice the losing cases are when they make on the nose and are down one. If we assume 14 total tricks, pass is even more likely the winner.

First, your scoring table isn't quite right, for instance 1♠X making one is not +110 for them (as if they made 2♠). They an additional 50 points.

Second, I doubt they will make 6 overtricks when you hold 5♠. It is of course possible, but if they can make a slam, you do ok playing in 2♦X or 1♠x.

The more likey situation is that they can make 2/3 ♠ and you may or maynot be able to make 2 of something. But this is not the only consideration. Let's assume for a minute you are right about the distribution (1444 for partner). They have a 7 card spade fit you have a 7 card red suit fit. That is 14 tricks. Let's work from that premise. If they make 1♠ you are down one in 2♦. So a possible (reasonable) result is -200 IF they find the double of 2♦ versus -160 (not 110) if you pass. Now, tweak the hand a bit, they can make 2♠ and you are down two in 2♦X... now the result is -260 versus -500. Ok, so bidding carries some signifacant risk. But what I think you overlook is the risk of not bidding when partner has the 1444 weak hand.

The risk here circles around the double pronged sword. If you bid over 1♠ dbl, then dbls by the opponents are for takeout generally. In fact, WEST with a good hand is likely to show it with another bid over your 2♦ as opposed to pass. However if you pass 1♠x and you catch WEST with a good hand, he will redouble, and this turns all the math on its head, AND it sets up forcing passes and penalty doubles perhaps (depending upon their partnership agreements). In otherwords, a pass can make it easier for them to wack you at a low level than an immediate bid.

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

I will bid 2 ♦, I reserve my 1 NT as holding 7-9 HCP.

Mike

[joker_gib]

I would also bid 2♦!

2♦ can come from a 3 cards suit because it's the cheapest bid if you have only 2♣ (the same as the response of 1♠ on 1♥-dbl-p-?)

Alain

[luis]

1NT is always constructive to me, so 1NT is not an option.
2c with a doubleton is not my idea of healthy bridge.
The options are pass, 2d and 2h, I think that 2h is better than 2d because a player who doubles 1s usually has 4h so his pd is more likely to bid 2h than 2m if he has 4-4 that's why 2m can show 5 cards and the doubler usually raises in competition to 3m when he has 4 cards in pd choosen minor. On the other hand doubler won't raise 2h to 3h with only 4 cards. If he raises he has 5 and a 5-3 fit isn't that bad.
Holding 0 I must take into consideration that pd can have a very very strong hand, maybe a game forcing hand on his own so whatever I bid won't be important unless I pass.

In this particular hand with 0 defensive tricks I doubt passing 1s is a good option and I can think about many evil things that can happen if I bid 2d so my bid is 2h.

[WGF_Flame]

I dont think there are two options here, just one u bid 2h and do it in tempo.
1nt has no point, not only it lay about your hand, even if it would show 0 pnts its still a poor contract which rates to be doubled, 2h will be better most of the times.

[Rado]

Hi all friends,

Nice gallery of questions and opinions here:-)
While we always like to have our good constructive 1NT responce (7)8-10, the real life offers some weaker hands which scream for NT contract:
♠Q109x♥xxx♦Q109♣Q109 is nice example for 1nt answer.
Even hands worse than the above sometimes might work well bidding 1NT as the least from the evils. There is enough space after 1NT for the Doubler to check our strength before blasting into Game.
Another point is which of the 3 cards suit's to bid? We must have in mind that although take-out DBL is Major oriented and is enough probable to have 4 cards♥, it will almost never has 5 cards♥ unless 16 or more points. Having 5 cards in ♠ strongly suggests singleton in partners hand and some of the times he will have 5 cards in ♦. Another possible danger is when partner see our 2♥ responce to jump directly to 4♥ hoping we to have 4+ suit and 1 usefull honour, while after 2♦ he might bid 2 or 3 ♥ which we will gladly pass. Further with the standart "bid your lowest possible place to play" I think 2♦ is the "correct" bid

Regards
Rado

[Trpltrbl]

Rado, on Feb 26 2004, 09:47 AM, said:

Hi all friends,

Nice gallery of questions and opinions here:-)
While we always like to have our good constructive 1NT responce (7)8-10, the real life offers some weaker hands which scream for NT contract:
♠Q109x♥xxx♦Q109♣Q109 is nice example for 1nt answer.

With that hand you basically have a 7-9 HCP hand with all the 10's and 9's. Even with one of Q's as a jack and I will still respond 1 NT.

Mike