How do YOU deal with that ?
#1
Posted 2004-January-28, 18:58
Well usually I do not have a problem with that as pple call in time - i can see who the delaying pair is, can make my ave+/ave- adjustments. But unfortunately , from time to time , it happens that I get a message :
" why ave?"
"ave ? can you explain me what you mean ? "
" you took our board away !! why ???"
" were you running late ? if so softwere automatically skipped your board, you should get a message , you did ? "
"yes - why ave ???"
When softwere automativally skips boards players get ave== assigned... how do you handle such situations ? Just let the ave== stand ? Or do you adjust this to ave--?
If you let ave== stand - do you think this is fair to the players which begun last board in round, but board is not played out, lets say 11 tricks left, TD was NOT called in time to see who the delayers are ( in that case ave-- is assigned ) ... Or do you adjust every board to ave== ?
#2
Posted 2004-January-29, 04:22
very good question marta, i think the only fair thing that can be done is changing software about this, maening that unrecheived hands (less then 5 minutes to go) would be automatically assignid with the average of the players(pairs) itself, for some giving a= means that they raise their score, for others it lowers significally, so allowing to not take that hand into count would change nothing on scoring , in mp, pairs with for example 65% will keep that, second i want to say i`ve been experimenting with 3boards/round, it doesnt work because you get a lot of problems marta mentioned above, so i changed back to 2boards/round
greetings marc
#3
Posted 2004-January-29, 09:50
Quote
If you let ave== stand - do you think this is fair to the players which begun last board in round, but board is not played out, lets say 11 tricks left, TD was NOT called in time to see who the delayers are ( in that case ave-- is assigned ) ... Or do you adjust every board to ave== ?
I don't think this is fair to players who got to play the boards, but then again, I'm a "hardliner" in many ways, and feel that all who can't manage to complete boards in time should receive penalty relating to the amount of time they took. (ie if it is not your pair's fault at all, your pair took only 1 minute compared to opponents took 11 (deliberately or not) and ended up with no time, you will not be penalised.
I don't like the new tourney software change, but it solves the headache of directors 99% of time, since many of our tourney players seem consistantly to be unable to handle the time requirement of the tourneys they entered.
r.dog
John Nelson.
#4
Posted 2004-January-30, 02:03
Giasone
Il grasso invece è sempre pronto per gl'interi
#5
Posted 2004-January-30, 08:10
#6
Posted 2004-January-30, 08:17
People have long complained about intentional slow play to keep from getting a bad result (famous hands like 3!Cxx down three for sure, but slow play gets only an average minus versus a zero). The problem with that situation is easy to understand. But let;s imagine a similar situation. You are in an eight board event, and got two great boards on round one, an average plus and an average on round three. With four boards to play, you are smoking along at 85% game. First board of next to last round, if going to be flat for EVERYONE for sure. A 10 trick 3NT on 1NT-3NT auction. What is the "winning strategy" if the second board will be "throw out" if not played? I think some might be tempted to drag their feet and play the average board very slowly, so you don't get to the second board. Bridge really should be a game of what you do with the cards, not how you manage the clock. Alas, online world is not a perfect world, I guess I would go with average minus for everyone for the late boards, but I would give them a chance to try to play it. Who knows, maybe able to claim quick.
ben
#7
Posted 2004-January-30, 08:51
Besides that, people who slow down to get A-, should get their true result plus an extra penalty
#8
Posted 2004-January-30, 09:37
Let's imagine an eight table event and you get a top on first board (100%). Now, you don't play another board, getting AVERAGES for the remainder of your boards. You end up with a 100% game. Now that just can't be right. Seems to me an AVERAGE board should be 50%, not average for the hands you played.
What I actually said was I was against throwing the board out so that an "AVERAGE" result was what you earned on the rest of your game. I could live with thowing it out and averaging 50% in, but not thrilled about that either. I don't am not fond of any solution that allows people the potential to play with the condition of contest as it relates to time to their advantage. So, right or wrong, I try to bring equity to the results when I direct.... by looking at the hand and adjusting scores as I feel apporpriate. I know the purist and the laws do not support my view on this issue. But if the result is clear, when the round is over, I correct the contract what the result would have been. IF the result is not clear, then I start playing with average pluses and average minuses...
But if Geraldo's observation about average plus is right, this is still not good enough. I am sure he didn't mean both average + and average - are less than your own real average (an average plus at 60% of your average, if you had a 50% game, would be only 30%... this is surely not what he meant), nor should an average plus when you have a 50% score be 80 (if it was 1.60% of your score). I think what he might be suggesting is average minus is 90% of your average (-10%) and average plus is 1.10% of your average), with average being your average.
But I really don't like this. Imagine a pair who is surely going to get a 70% if the hand is finished, and might get a 100%, (line dependent) but you can't tell. So you go in and award them average+ and their opponents an average minus. But now imagine the team you awareded an average minus had a 70% game before this hand, they end up with 63% score on the hand where the best they could have done was 30% and might have gotten 0%. But what if the pair with the likely good result had a 40% game before this hand? Their average plus ends up as a 44%, nearly a full 30 points below their best possible score, and maybe 56 pts low. And look at the oddity here. The pair that was going to be saddled with a ZERO or 30% score ends up getting much better than a real average (63%) and actually getting a much better score than their opponents at the table.
I think AVERAGE Minus should be 38% or so, and average plus should be 62% or so. And average, if you award that should be 50% exactly. What you did no the other hands of no consequences, imho.
Ben
#9
Posted 2004-January-30, 10:02
ben
#10
Posted 2004-January-30, 10:14
Gerardo, on Jan 30 2004, 11:51 AM, said:
Besides that, people who slow down to get A-, should get their true result plus an extra penalty
I meant based on The Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge 1997. Currently on BBO A+ is 60%, A= is 50% and A- is 40%, all percentages taken from a top.
So I mean A+ is the greater of 60% and your average (on played hands), then take this number from a top, and assign that to the hand where you got the A-
A- and A= treated the same way.
In your example, Ben:
the pair who gets A+ gets max(60%, 40%(average on played hands)) = 60%
the pair who gets A- gets min(40%, 70%(average on played hands)) = 40%
That is, unless you could extract a result from it. Quoting Law 12C2:
" When the Director awards an assigned adjusted score in place of a result actually obtained after an irregularity, the score is, for a non-offending side, the most favourable result that was likely had the irregularity not occurred or, for an offending side, the most unfavourable result that was at all probable. The scores awarded to the two sides need not balance and may be assigned either in matchpoints or by altering the total-point score prior to matchpointing"
Besides that, for intentional slow down to try to get a better result I would assign an extra penalty, based on Law 74 (Conduct and Etiquette)
BBO scoring methods would need to be revised to allow unbalanced scores and lawful average calculations, and to allow extra penalties, called procedural in the Laws.
#11
Posted 2004-January-30, 10:21
Ben
#12
Posted 2004-January-30, 17:52
about skipping the board for the overall score, i see here things like( 100score in first board then skip every board after) , first i think we td will be informed if a pair isnt playing anymore:) then they will be subbed, secondly, they only can skip their last board of every round and if not finisched their first they get a- there so they wont be gaining much with that tactic unless they like to see the sub that took their place in topfinischers cause they got a great start and didnt mess up in games to come, after about 20 secs when one player isnt bidding we get calls, then after two minutes play the slow play calls comes, hell, somebody called me yesterday to complain his finesses didnt work while the percentages where favourable , what i would like to see is the possibilty of expanded penalty adjustments , so far i know we can only adjust to 40%, but i have had occasions where that didnt cut it and i would like to give out a clean nice 0% (false explanations delibertly to mislead opps, repeatedly not explaning when query is made, dummy talk what to play, e.o )
but as stated before we cant be perfect while it is a online thing only triying our best to be fair in the best way we can
greetings marc
#13
Posted 2004-January-30, 23:22
Mike
so much the better. If there is restlessness, I am pleased. Then let there
be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.”
#14
Posted 2004-January-31, 16:01
Giasone
Il grasso invece è sempre pronto per gl'interi
#15
Posted 2004-January-31, 17:34
When you set up a tournament, you set the "Minutes per board". The amount of time for the round is calculated based on that times the number of boards per round.
If the clock runs out while a deal is in progress, then the average minuses come into play.
If a board is about to be played, it can only be started if there is at least 1/2 of the allocated time per board remaining. So if you have set 8 minutes per board and less than 4 minutes remains, the board will be skipped. In this case, both pairs receive averages. I assume average applies to any boards that are skipped in their entirety.
It certainly sounded to me like a good idea not to let players begin a board if there appears to be too little time remaining in the round (something similar is sometimes done in face-to-face bridge).
#16
Posted 2004-February-01, 11:02
#17
Posted 2004-February-01, 16:56
#19
Posted 2004-February-01, 22:45
#20
Posted 2004-February-02, 00:11
Consider chronic slow players.
(why they continue to enter time events of 7/8 min per board is total mystery to me)
PairA play round 1 and do not play board 2 so they see ave= . This is disgusting. They at fault (assuming no connection problem) and poor PairB is at mercy of PairA. I imagine many times when maybe this second board hold potential for top board but due to not playing 2nd board all they see is Ave=.
However... if we ability to assess penalty, (like suggest but rule violation Gerardo mention) this maybe "encourage" chronic slow players to play/bid promptly. AND this give TD other tool to use when making adjustments.
And it continue for entire tournament... PairA is now playing PairC and again they time issues... This create extra work for td for this pair is chronic slow, ( and normally very vocal and wanting adjustment!) and what of poor PairC? they come to play nice brisk bridge and instead find painful 1-2 min deliberations on whether to play 2 of spades or 4 of spades tee hee...
so Uday/Fred please we beg you... give us ability to assess penalty to this people without affecting entire tournament.