[ArcLight]

Pard makes a takeout double, then bids a new suit . What do you expect he has?

1♥ - X - 2♥ - P
p - 3♣ - P - ?


What do you expect form the Doubler? How good a hand? How many Clubs.

How would you bid now holding:
♠ x
♥ x
♦ Q 9 8 x x x
♣ T 9 x x x

Pass?
4 Clubs?
5 Clubs?
Other?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

a strong hand with at least 5 clubs, most of the
time he will have a 6 card suit, but I dont care
what he has as long as he has a hand with clubs,
which was too strong to make a simple 2C overcall.

With the given hand, I would bid 5C, ...should make.
The only option would be 4H splinter, but I think
this would overstate the strength of the hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

5+ clubs, around 18-21 hcp (with more, cue). I would bid 4♥ now.

[foo]

Like many things in Bridge, partnership style and agreements vary the "right" answers somewhat. The following is what I think is the more or less mainstream NA style.


1= How good does a hand have to be to justify X then bid a new suit?

VERY good. 5- losers if Major suit oriented and 4- losers if minor suit oriented, and the appropriate number of controls (A's and K's).
Forget about point ranges. Playing strength based on power+shape is what matters.

Overcaller is basically asking Advancer to advance the auction or bid Game on the least excuse.


2= How would you bid now holding: ♠ x ♥ x ♦ Q98xxx ♣ T9xxx

Count your losers. Your hand opposite a 5- loser hand should make 5m, and you are willing to compete to 6m if They bid 5M over 5m.

OTOH, your hand's playing strength is based on shape and fit, not power tricks. Do not mislead GOP by bidding this as if you are looking for a slam!

Remember that They opened the bidding, so We should be missing at least 2 Quick Tricks.

Bid 5C in tempo and compete to 6C in tempo if you have to.

[hrothgar]

3♣ shows a very strong single suited hand. The minimum strength can vary dramatically depending on what school that you belong to. (case in point: If a Kokish advocate doubled and then showed a suit, he'll have a real rock crusher)

In the context of the bidding, you have a phenomenal hand. You have 5 trumps and second round control in both majors. Like Justin, my big worry is how to investigate slam intelligent.

Regretfully, Blackwood is going to take us past 5♣ if partner has 2 keycards. I think that 4♥ is the best choice.

[foo]

I do not recommend cue bidding or making any other strong slam move when holding a hand that contains no hard values.

Can Overcaller be off 2 A's or a critical A and K on this auction? Of course they can.

Shape is a wonderful thing, but you also have to have controls appropriate to your contract.

IMHO Justin and Richard are being a bit too over optimistic. If they are that worried about missing a slam when holding this hand as Advancer, they should just bid 6m...

If you must make a strong move with this hand, be in the correct partnership and bid 3D. This promises at least tolerance for ♣'s and "gets your hand off your chest". Personally, I think that it may be an overbid, but it's much closer to reasonable than a cuebid or some other bid that should promise some hard values or first round controls.

[whereagles]

foo, on Nov 8 2007, 03:43 PM, said:

IMHO Justin and Richard are being a bit too over optimistic.

I'm glad it's just them and not me

[jtfanclub]

hrothgar, on Nov 8 2007, 09:57 AM, said:

3♣ shows a very strong single suited hand.

I don't feel confident in that, at least the way my partners usually bid.

This is a balancing situation. If it had gone, say,

1♥ X 2♦ P
2♥ 3♣

Absolutely partner should have a monster.

For this? In MPs all white, I'm thinking more of....

AKxx
x
xxx
AKJxx

as a minimum. Could be a lot stronger, of course. Wanna pass, let them play in 2 hearts? Wanna X, and play 3 diamonds down 5 or so across, say,

Qx
xxxx
xxxx
Qxx ?

Nah, you're gonna bid 3♣. You might not at the forums, but you will at the table. Admit it. (this assumes that you'd X with that hand in the first place, which is not everybody's cup o' tea).

Across the hand given:

♠ x
♥ x
♦ Q 9 8 x x x
♣ T 9 x x x

Well, the opponents are being awfully quiet for the hand I gave as a minimum for your partner, so he's probably stronger and less shapely. Still, it's not hard for me to believe that 4♣ is the limit of the hand, although if that's the case they probably have 4♥ (well, they don't, but how would they know about the spade ruff?).

So I'll do a weak and pathetic 3♥ call, correcting 3♠ and 3NT to 4♣. If they suddenly decide to bid 4♥, um, it'll depend on the vulnerability.

I'm not going to pass or bid 4♣, but I can't bring myself to hang partner for balancing.

[jdonn]

4♥ heck yeah baby.

[cherdano]

This is not a balancing bid, it shows partner planned to double and bid clubs. It is very hard to construct hands where partner would do this with 5 clubs only, but it is possible. Anyway, I have to show my huge support, any bid that is not a raise misdescribes this hand. I bid 4♥ too, this may get us to a bad slam if partner has wasted values in both black suits, but will get us to some good slams.

[dicklont]

P shows a strong hand with 5+ clubs. I bid 5♣ now.

[jtfanclub]

Jlall, on Nov 8 2007, 12:37 PM, said:

You also take that risk because bidding 3C shows a completely different hand.

Well, the risk is that if partner has a balanced weak hand, you might end up in 2♦ when you X 1♥, but you shouldn't end up in 3.

I swear that most of my regular partners would X then "balance" with a suit with this hand. So I apologize, and will try to get that corrected in my partnerships. Bad habits by us intermediates and all that.

[skjaeran]

I'd bid 5♣.
4♥ is overdoing it IMO. Partner would expect some more high card values or a void. (Sure there might be slam on.)

[mikeh]

skaeran, on Nov 8 2007, 03:53 PM, said:

I'd bid 5♣.
4♥ is overdoing it IMO. Partner would expect some more high card values or a void. (Sure there might be slam on.)

agreed

I just finished reading the current BW, where, in the US team trials, Meckstroh splintered with, I think, Kxxx Jxxxx x xxx like after partner opened 1♠ and RHO overcalled 2♦. It got them to a great slam, over which the opps saved.

But there surely has to be a limit on just how weak a splinter can be, and this is below my personal cut-off.

As to the original question, I think the majority of experts are in or close to the Kokish camp, especially when it comes to doubling and then bidding a minor: this is a BIG hand. I would expect a 6 card suit, but I could live with AKx xxx Ax AKQxx.. unable to double again because of the diamond shortness.

Note that this hand should (imo) drive to slam opposite a splinter, which is why I would splinter with the ♦Kxxxxx but not the Qxxxxx

[ArcLight]

I bid 5♣.

Immediately the table host (either Advanced or Expert), who was my pickup pard typed "IDIOT" and booted me.

I was just wondering if 5♣ was a terrible bid.
I get the impression here at least that I wasn't an idiot and that 5♣ was not unreasonable. (If you want to know his hand, I didn't have a chance to see it because I was booted so fast)

[goobers]

Maybe he was down 3

[kenberg]

ArcLight, on Nov 8 2007, 05:40 PM, said:

I bid 5♣.

Immediately the table host (either Advanced or Expert), who was my pickup pard typed "IDIOT" and booted me.

I was just wondering if 5♣ was a terrible bid.
I get the impression here at least that I wasn't an idiot and that 5♣ was not unreasonable. (If you want to know his hand, I didn't have a chance to see it because I was booted so fast)

Maybe he was speaking to himself and was embarrassed to let you see his hand.
Well, probably not.

[han]

mikeh, on Nov 8 2007, 04:23 PM, said:

skaeran, on Nov 8 2007, 03:53 PM, said:

I'd bid 5♣.
4♥ is overdoing it IMO. Partner would expect some more high card values or a void. (Sure there might be slam on.)

agreed

I just finished reading the current BW, where, in the US team trials, Meckstroh splintered with, I think, Kxxx Jxxxx x xxx like after partner opened 1♠ and RHO overcalled 2♦. It got them to a great slam, over which the opps saved.

But there surely has to be a limit on just how weak a splinter can be, and this is below my personal cut-off.

As to the original question, I think the majority of experts are in or close to the Kokish camp, especially when it comes to doubling and then bidding a minor: this is a BIG hand. I would expect a 6 card suit, but I could live with AKx xxx Ax AKQxx.. unable to double again because of the diamond shortness.

Note that this hand should (imo) drive to slam opposite a splinter, which is why I would splinter with the ♦Kxxxxx but not the Qxxxxx

That is entirely different. Here we didn't act over 2H with shortness (which partner knows since we are showing it), so how good a hand can we have? Meckstroth on the other hand was (I think) unlimited.

I would also bid 4♥