[Apollo81]

This is from an email poll conducted by one of the players in my area to which I was a respondent. As this post is in advanced/expert-class bridge, you can assume partner is advanced/expert class.

IMPs/none vul

♠xxxx
♥A10
♦xx
♣KJ1098

(p)-p-(p)-1♠
(p)-3♣*-(p)-3NT
(p)-?

*Bergen constructive raise
------------------------------

The following two points should go without saying, but I will post them anyway:
1. There is no partnership agreement about the 3NT bid
2. No one cares what methods you play or what you think about the 3c bid; we only care about what you would do (and possibly why) at this juncture.

[mike777]

I bid 4C at this juncture.

Why? Because I got a decent club suit and want to tell partner my hand. Over 4D I will bid 4H. Over 4S I pass.

[karlson]

I think this is somewhat close, but I pull. The hands I can come up with where 3n is better are something like AKQxxx Kx Ax xxx. But it's hard to see how partner can do this with nothing in clubs, and it seems more likely that his spades are not solid (3n could be a disaster).

Spoiler

Btw, boy does this look like a UI case

[karlson]

karlson, on Nov 7 2007, 01:18 PM, said:

I think this is somewhat close, but I pull. The hands I can come up with where 3n is better are something like AKQxxx Kx Ax xxx. But it's hard to see how partner can do this with nothing in clubs, and it seems more likely that his spades are not solid (3n could be a disaster).

Spoiler

Btw, boy does this look like a UI case

Hm. 4s is also cold on my example. Back to the hand generator, and leaning even more towards pulling.

I guess I can replace ♦Ax by KQ, but this is getting silly.

[vang]

agree with Mike, seems obvious.

[easy]

Ok i've gotta ask... (a) what is a bergen constructive raise (B) is this really played by " bergenists " as a passed hand? Who are we trying to keep out of the bidding?


and finally addressing the question. I pull to 4s.

[MFA]

Why not just try to forge an agreement about 3NT instead?
If you insist: 4♣.

[mike777]

easy, on Nov 7 2007, 05:47 PM, said:

Ok i've gotta  ask... (a) what is a bergen constructive raise ( is this really played by " bergenists " as a passed hand? Who are we trying to keep out of the bidding?


and finally addressing the question. I pull to 4s.

Since you asked nicely.
1) Yes many still play Bergen on by a passed hand. For me 8-11 support pts and 4 trumps.
2) Why because partner may wish to make a game try if she knows you have 4 trumps but not if you only have 3 trumps. In the spade suit if you prefer to only bid 2spades and be forced to 3s later fair enough...most of us can live with that too. Never ending debate.
3) Also with a third seat opener, the opp can really still have a game and may find it if you stop in 2 spades. As I said never ending debate esp with the spade suit.

[pclayton]

4♠ not 4♣ and certainly not pass.

3N undiscussed is a choice of games. This is not an exceptional 3♣ call, so would we think we have slam? 4♣ just makes it easier for them to take their red suit tricks or find a club ruff.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Nov 8 2007, 02:08 AM, said:

easy, on Nov 7 2007, 05:47 PM, said:

Ok i've gotta  ask... (a) what is a bergen constructive raise ( is this really played by " bergenists " as a passed hand? Who are we trying to keep out of the bidding?


and finally addressing the question. I pull to 4s.

Since you asked nicely.
1) Yes many still play Bergen on by a passed hand. For me 8-11 support pts and 4 trumps.
2) Why because partner may wish to make a game try if she knows you have 4 trumps but not if you only have 3 trumps. In the spade suit if you prefer to only bid 2spades and be forced to 3s later fair enough...most of us can live with that too. Never ending debate.
3) Also with a third seat opener, the opp can really still have a game and may find it if you stop in 2 spades. As I said never ending debate esp with the spade suit.

Playing Bergen by a passed hand is pointless. It might be fine for players whose memory won't allow them to play different methods in first/second compared to third/fourth, but I don't see any other reason to use this:

A passed hand really has no use for a classic Jacoby 2NT. You won't have a game forcing raise with near enough frequency to justify the use of the bid. In turn, this means that you can reallocate some bidding space:

After a 1S opening,

A 2NT response shows a limit raise with 4 pieces (limit+ if you prefer)
A raise to 3M shows a constructive raise with four pieces

You can now use 3♣/3♦/3♥ for something much more useful like a fit jump, or some combination of fit jumps and mini-splinters.

I have (rarely) seen some good pairs use the jump to 3♣ and 3♦ to show a 4 card raise clarifying range: Typically, the partnership devotes the high level responses to show a fit jump and the low level responses for a range bid.

For example, on those rare occasions when I am playing 2/1 or Polish club in a serious partnership, I have sometimes used the following over a third seat opening

1S - 3♠ = fit jump in Hearts
1♠ - 3♥ = fit jump in Diamonds
1♠ - 3♦ = Fit jump in Clubs
1♠ - 3♣ = 4 card limit raise
1♠ - 2N = Limit splinter
1♠ - 2♦ = Constructive raise with 4 card support

However, I would hardly call this "Bergen"

[mike777]

I dont have any proof but it just seems that fit jumps are much more common overseas or on the BBO Forum than in ACBL expert land.

Of course none of this means that fit jumps are not a better method of raises.
In any case it would be nice to see what the arguement against fit jumps is.

Yes we all know the forum posters for fit jumps. I would just like to see the other side of the discussion.

[Echognome]

mike777, on Nov 7 2007, 03:41 PM, said:

I dont have any proof but it just seems that fit jumps are much more common overseas or on the BBO Forum than in ACBL expert land.

Of course none of this means that fit jumps are not a better method of raises.
In any case it would be nice to see what the arguement against fit jumps is.

Yes we all know the forum posters for fit jumps. I would just like to see the other side of the discussion.

The other side of the discussion is frequency.

I'm personally happy with fit jumps or mini-splinters. But then again, I'm not a big fan of Bergen either.

But to answer your question Mike, the fit jumps are much more descriptive bids, as are the mini-splinters. They just don't come up very often. Fit jumps, in particular, are used more often by a PH, because jumping doesn't make as much sense without a good fit. In fact, the jumps based on 3-card support are plain awful opposite what could be a 4-card suit (presuming you play that in 3rd or 4th, which you will find more people here playing than in the general bridge public).

[jtfanclub]

mike777, on Nov 7 2007, 06:08 PM, said:

1) Yes many still play Bergen on by a passed hand. For me 8-11 support pts and 4 trumps.

Well, that's one bid.

Bergen uses 4 bids to show 4 card support: 2NT, 3♣, 3♦, and 3 of the suit.

Do you use all four bids with a passed hand?

You can use 2NT to mean "I have a 3♣ or 3♦ hand", then...

3♣="I want to be in game/slam across a good 3♣ response"
3♦="I want to be in game/slam only across a 3♦ response"
3M= I don't want to be in game.
4M= I want to be in game.

Other bids would tend to be slammish.

In fact this actually gives you a little extra space...after 1♠-2NT-3♣, you can use 3♦ to be wishy-washy "I have kind of a good 3 club response", 3♠ to show a bad 3♣ response, 4♠ to show a good 3 club response or a bad 4 diamond response, and all other bids to show a good diamond response. Or whatever.

Anyhow, I guess the question is, what do you use 2NT over a 1M bid when the 2NTer is a passed hand? I mean, if you have 12+ support points and 4 card support, don't you have a Splinter bid you could use?

[mike777]

jtfanclub, on Nov 7 2007, 07:28 PM, said:

mike777, on Nov 7 2007, 06:08 PM, said:

1) Yes many still play Bergen on by a passed hand. For me 8-11 support pts and 4 trumps.

Well, that's one bid.

Bergen uses 4 bids to show 4 card support: 2NT, 3♣, 3♦, and 3 of the suit.

Do you use all four bids with a passed hand?

You can use 2NT to mean "I have a 3♣ or 3♦ hand", then...

3♣="I want to be in game/slam across a good 3♣ response"
3♦="I want to be in game/slam only across a 3♦ response"
3M= I don't want to be in game.
4M= I want to be in game.

Other bids would tend to be slammish.

In fact this actually gives you a little extra space...after 1♠-2NT-3♣, you can use 3♦ to be wishy-washy "I have kind of a good 3 club response", 3♠ to show a bad 3♣ response, 4♠ to show a good 3 club response or a bad 4 diamond response, and all other bids to show a good diamond response. Or whatever.

Anyhow, I guess the question is, what do you use 2NT over a 1M bid when the 2NTer is a passed hand? I mean, if you have 12+ support points and 4 card support, don't you have a Splinter bid you could use?

Will say this and then back to OP thread not this stuff....it is his thread!


NO


2nt as passed hand over one of major is just not used in fact over one of minor it has never been used....sure we could use it for something...but this is not why I lose at bridge.....not even close....

Just for fun next time some bergen bid by a passedhand comes up I will post it...for that matter any 2/1 bid by a passed hand...

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Nov 8 2007, 03:39 AM, said:

2nt as passed hand over one of major is just not used in fact over one of minor it has never been used....sure we could use it for something...but this is not why I lose at bridge.....not even close....

Just for fun next time some bergen bid by a passed hand comes up I will post it...for that matter any 2/1 bid by a passed hand...

A couple threads back, you commented how great it was to play light openings in 3rd/4th seat in conjunction with light openings in first and second.

I criticized this theory, commenting that you would end up with enormous amount of dead bidding space after your third and 4th seat opening. Low and behold, we know find out that 2/1's and 2NT responses don't exist for you after third and fourth seat openings.

I would hardly call this an effective approach towards bidding.

[mike777]

well not light in 4th seat but yes in third seat....as I said you made a thoughtful post......I was trying to give a compliment but seem to be taken other once again.


2/1 in minors are common since I do not play weak two's in the minors but none of this lessens your comments.

[han]

I would certainly pull 3NT to 4S. I think that the fact that their is no agreement is irrelevant btw, what else can 3NT mean than "I think that perhaps we should play 3NT".

I agree with mike777 and others that playing Bergen raises in 3rd and 4th seat is really bad.

[Codo]

If pd wants to play 3 NT even opposite a 4 card raise, why didn´t he open 1 NT?
If pd wants something spcial from me, a control, a second suit, why didn´t he start with 3 D or 3 H?

So I go with the majority and think that he offers an alternative strain and I decline with 4 Spade.

[helene_t]

I would pass. Maybe p has weak spades and we have 9 tricks outside of spades, or 8 outside tricks plus one spade trick. Anyway my hand tastes of notrump.