[Edmunte1]

Some comments:
1) I don't like double at all. Suppose that partner holds something like:
A10xxxx Kxx x K10x. What would happen? He'll bid 3 ♠, and we'll miss a cold vulnerable game. Even if we add a queen, probably he'll stil bid 3♠. Or let's suppose he holds a good 13-14hcp hand without 4♥: AJxxx Kx xx AJ9x. He would also bid 3♠. And even if partner bids 3♥, do we have a clear raise? Partenr still can have AJxxx KQxx xx xx and maybe a bit less. So we MUST show support
2) What support? 3

[jdonn]

Regarding double:
For one thing partner is not passing, quit dreaming. You have xxx of their suit and he is under the bidder.

For another partner has to bid 3♥ with three card holdings a lot, that is just standard. What else does a 5323 or 5332 with no good suits do? And hope he's not a minimum with four clubs.

Also if partner bids 3♠ you are now on the total guess whether to raise or not.

If partner bids 3NT it might be better, might be worse. However if he decides to bid 3NT over a 3♠ raise you can be a lot more confident that's right.

[Edmunte1]

Some comments:
1) I don't like double at all. Suppose that partner holds something like:
A10xxxx Kxx x K10x. What would happen? He'll bid 3 ♠, and we'll miss a cold vulnerable game. Even if we add a queen, probably he'll stil bid 3♠. Or let's suppose he holds a good 13-14hcp hand without 4♥: AJxxx Kx xx AJ9x. He would also bid 3♠. And even if partner bids 3♥, do we have a clear raise? Partenr still can have AJxxx KQxx xx xx and maybe a bit less. So we MUST show support
2) What support? 3♠ or 4♠? The normal way of thinking is to consider partner as a good minimum opening with 2 diamonds as an average hand and see what happens.
Suppose that's partner has AJxxx KJx xx Axx - if the heart finesse succeds we can make the contract on a squeeze. Or maybe AJxxx Qxx xx AJx - again a squeeze is possible with some winning finesses, and if we add a Jack we have really good game chances.
3) Another important point: we're vunerable, and missing the game will maybe cost us 10 IMP's, and just overbidding we'll lose only 6 IMP's, so it's a 62.5% win-loss raport. And even if we'll go down probably we won't be doubled (one of opps is a passed hand, another is a preemptor and they don't have trump honours)

So it's a choice between 3♠ and 4♠, and i'll probably go for the game

(Sry, misclicked on the previous posts)

[awm]

You can even double and then bid 3♠....

The "problem" with double is that you pretty much have to bid 4♠ over 3♠ from partner, and you have to correct 4♣ to 4♠. Obviously these could be overbids. My point was that double will generally work better than bidding 4♠. After all, it is hard to construct a sequence where where double causes us to "lose" the spades, whereas it's easy to construct sequences where double gets us to a better spot than 4♠ (most often 4♥).

Now, this is not to say that double is better than bidding 3♠. There are many sequences where after double, you end up in game -- for example partner bids 4♣ over the double and you have to bid 4♠, or partner bids 3NT over the double. It could be that nine tricks is the limit (or even eight tricks is the limit). It seems to me that this situation is more likely opposite the third seat 1♠ opening than it would be opposite a first seat 1♠ opening.

[awm]

Jlall, on Nov 6 2007, 04:43 PM, said:

You can't play in a 4-4 heart fit when partner bids 3H because he can easily have 3 of them.

You can't play 3♥ in a 4-4 fit all the time.

But it seems like you should be able to play 4♥ when you have a 4-4 heart fit, and 4♠ otherwise. Probably double followed by 3♠ over 3♥ shows 3♠-4♥ and a good hand?

[kenrexford]

pclayton, on Nov 6 2007, 02:52 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 6 2007, 10:25 AM, said:

3♠ shows about 8 to 11. "A 7 count and four trumps" is pretty much 8. So if this is a maximum (but obvious in the sense that 4 is too much) 3♠, there isn't much point in saying "But we would make the same bid on a minimum 3♠ bid so we can't also do it on a maximum 3♠ bid!"

Well ok. Part of this has to do with pard's tendencies opposite a passed hand negative double. Will he punt with 3♥ or 3♠ with a minimum? Will he just bash 3N with a diamond stopper (stupid I know).

My concern is that we could miss a game opposite some very acceptable minimums. We have three cover cards and possibly a 4th. Even the ♥10 could be valuable.

Would you move with a 6 loser hand like: AJxxx, KQxx, xx, Ax if pard bid a simple 3♠? I don't think I would.

Hell Yes!

[foo]

jdonn, on Nov 6 2007, 04:27 PM, said:

Regarding double:
For one thing partner is not passing, quit dreaming. You have xxx of their suit and he is under the bidder.

For another partner has to bid 3♥ with three card holdings a lot, that is just standard. What else does a 5323 or 5332 with no good suits do? And hope he's not a minimum with four clubs.

Also if partner bids 3♠ you are now on the total guess whether to raise or not.

If partner bids 3NT it might be better, might be worse. However if he decides to bid 3NT over a 3♠ raise you can be a lot more confident that's right.

I disagree that opener will never pass a Negative X after a 3rd chair mininum opening. Especially when opponents are Red.

Given that Responder is looking at KQx of ♠'s here, Opener did not open a subminimum with an exceptional ♠ suit.

Give opener a normal 12-13 count 5(332) {especially =5233} and opener should be penalty passing Negative X's. Ditto many =5134's.

Opener will not be passing with a 15 count, nor with most 14's, so the odds of missing a game are not as high as some are worrying about.


...and for all the people who think shape is important but hate Negative X, exactly how are you planning on figuring out if We have a 2x fit in the Majors? Or anything else about how well Our hands "fit"?

There's a reason why some play that Negative X followed by raise shows a 3 card Limit Raise. (I'm being neither pro nor con about said method. Just noting that logic like this is why it exists.)

[foo]

Jlall, on Nov 6 2007, 04:53 PM, said:

here is a bidding problem:

Kx Qxx xxx AQxxx (if this is an opening hand to you make it slightly weaker). The auction goes p p 1S (3D) ?

It would not surprise me if X and then 3S over 3H were the majority action with this hand.

Nice bidding problem. They have indeed succeeded in putting the pressure on Us.

This class of "max invitational but not GF w/o support or a side 4cM" in auctions like this is a fairly common problem.

Now the bad news. =Nothing= you do here will be right all the time.

In fact, in the style most use for 3rd seat openings, responding hands like Kx/Qxx/xxx/AQxxx are going to be "endplayed" into bidding 4S (and praying) after
pa-pa-1S-(3D);X-pa-3S-pa;??
because Responder has a 7 loser hand with 2 QT.

Even pa-pa-1S-(3D);X-pa-3H-pa;?? is potentially worrisome given that opener may well be 55 in S+H here.
{A useful agreement might be to have Opener simply bid 4H with a good 6- loser hand with 4 H's or a 7- loser 55(12) in this situation, thereby limiting the 3H rebid fairly tightly.}

Give Responder an 8 loser 10-11 count (IOW, a clearly invitational hand rather than a almost GF hand) and Responder can worry less about missing game opposite most Openers that can't make a strong rebid in this auction.

But as I said, you will never be right 100% of the time here no matter you do.

[whereagles]

Jlall, on Nov 6 2007, 09:53 PM, said:

Kx Qxx xxx AQxxx (if this is an opening hand to you make it slightly weaker). The auction goes p p 1S 3D ?

It would not surprise me if X and then 3S over 3H were the majority action with this hand.

I would probably dbl too, though might not bid over opener's 3♥.

[skjaeran]

I'd have opened this hand.
Now I'll just bid 3♠.

[han]

I never had this hand, I had KQx A10xx xxx Kxx and passed as opener (playing with a partner who likes to play fairly sound openings in 1st and 2nd seat, but I think he would have opened my hand anyway).

I doubled 3D and partner passed, hurray! 500 was excellent because 4S was usually down, partner had Axxxx K KJx xxxx.