[whereagles]

mike777, on Nov 5 2007, 01:16 AM, said:

Drury is great if you open sound in first or second seat.
Drury is not needed if you open lite in first or second seat.

I knew of a very aggressive matchpoint pair who used permanent Drury, so as to be able to open consistently on 8-9 hcps

[mike777]

whereagles, on Nov 6 2007, 11:35 AM, said:

mike777, on Nov 5 2007, 01:16 AM, said:

Drury is great if you open sound in first or second seat.
Drury is not needed if you open lite in first or second seat.

I knew of a very aggressive matchpoint pair who used permanent Drury, so as to be able to open consistently on 8-9 hcps

You do not need drury if you open aggressive.

Partner will almost never pass in first or second seat with a limit raise.

If you suggest they play drury in all seats that is different but why bother, just bid to your Law level and make your limit raises 12-13.

Keep in mind if you open light the opp are going to overcall very often so even less able to use drury.

[whereagles]

well, those guys have large egoes. I ain't gonna suggest them anything.. lol.

[tysen2k]

I used to like Drury when I played 2/1, but now I play a system that opens super-light in 1st/2nd and opens soundly in 3rd.

Tysen

[jdonn]

If I played a system of very light openers in first two seats, I would be MORE likely to open light in 3rd not less. It's called stealing from your opponents and making their lives tough, and it works even better if you know partner's pass is weaker.

[mike777]

jdonn, on Nov 6 2007, 06:03 PM, said:

If I played a system of very light openers in first two seats, I would be MORE likely to open light in 3rd not less. It's called stealing from your opponents and making their lives tough, and it works even better if you know partner's pass is weaker.

Agree 100%. Great post.

[hrothgar]

jdonn, on Nov 7 2007, 02:03 AM, said:

If I played a system of very light openers in first two seats, I would be MORE likely to open light in 3rd not less. It's called stealing from your opponents and making their lives tough, and it works even better if you know partner's pass is weaker.

There's a couple problems with this approach:

1. You end up with massive amounts of dead bidding space. If you open very light in first and second seat, you'll rarely have hands suitable for advancing over partner's light 3rd/4th seat opening.

2. You'll often end up very exposed. Suppose that partner has passed in first or second seat. You open a 10-12 NT in 3rd... You won't have any values or shape when the opponent's put down the red card. Obviously, this is an extreme example, but the basic concept holds true...

[jdonn]

hrothgar, on Nov 6 2007, 06:19 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 7 2007, 02:03 AM, said:

If I played a system of very light openers in first two seats, I would be MORE likely to open light in 3rd not less. It's called stealing from your opponents and making their lives tough, and it works even better if you know partner's pass is weaker.

There's a couple problems with this approach:

1. You end up with massive amounts of dead bidding space. If you open very light in first and second seat, you'll rarely have hands suitable for advancing over partner's light 3rd/4th seat opening.

2. You'll often end up very exposed. Suppose that partner has passed in first or second seat. You open a 10-12 NT in 3rd... You won't have any values or shape when the opponent's put down the red card. Obviously, this is an extreme example, but the basic concept holds true...

1. what do you mean?

2. It's not totally safe but I'm not that worried. It's very effective.

[ArtK78]

I have always been intrigued by the idea of a 10-12 1NT opening bid in third seat opposite a passed partner playing a light initial action system. What is the logic in that? You announce to the world that you have less than 13 HCP facing a partner who failed to open in a light opening system. Does the word double occur to anyone?

[hrothgar]

jdonn, on Nov 7 2007, 02:28 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Nov 6 2007, 06:19 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 7 2007, 02:03 AM, said:

If I played a system of very light openers in first two seats, I would be MORE likely to open light in 3rd not less. It's called stealing from your opponents and making their lives tough, and it works even better if you know partner's pass is weaker.

There's a couple problems with this approach:

1. You end up with massive amounts of dead bidding space. If you open very light in first and second seat, you'll rarely have hands suitable for advancing over partner's light 3rd/4th seat opening.

2. You'll often end up very exposed. Suppose that partner has passed in first or second seat. You open a 10-12 NT in 3rd... You won't have any values or shape when the opponent's put down the red card. Obviously, this is an extreme example, but the basic concept holds true...

1. what do you mean?

Suppose that you've passed in 1st seat playing an highly aggressive opening system like Magic Diamond.

Partner opens a light 1♠ in third seat and RHO passes:

What should a 2/1 show?
What should a jump to 2NT show?
What show a jump to the three level show?

The fact that you passed in 1st seat rules out most of the traditional meanings for these bids: You aren't going to have hands suitable for a fit jump or a mini-splinter or even drury. You probably can't ever make game on power...

It might be possible to define some reason meaning for a sequence like

P - 1S
3S

or

P - 1S
2D

however I'm at a loss to know what that would be...

[jdonn]

I would make 1NT 2C 2D 2H natural and everything else a raise, I don't see a problem.

[hrothgar]

ArtK78, on Nov 7 2007, 02:28 AM, said:

I have always been intrigued by the idea of a 10-12 1NT opening bid in third seat opposite a passed partner playing a light initial action system. What is the logic in that? You announce to the world that you have less than 13 HCP facing a partner who failed to open in a light opening system. Does the word double occur to anyone?

Thats my point:

Most pairs who play light opening systems use a 14-16 or 15-17 NT in 3rd/4th...

[Echognome]

hrothgar, on Nov 6 2007, 03:36 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 7 2007, 02:28 AM, said:

I have always been intrigued by the idea of a 10-12 1NT opening bid in third seat opposite a passed partner playing a light initial action system.  What is the logic in that?  You announce to the world that you have less than 13 HCP facing a partner who failed to open in a light opening system.  Does the word double occur to anyone?

Thats my point:

Most pairs who play light opening systems use a 14-16 or 15-17 NT in 3rd/4th...

Played 8-14 balanced in 3rd NV for awhile. Purely for the preemptive value. No systems afterward, so P - (P) - 1NT - (P); 2♣ would be natural.

[awm]

I've always liked an approach where we pass weak balanced hands, but open very aggressively with shape (i.e. rule of 18).

Opposite such a 1st/2nd seat style, it still makes sense to open aggressively with shape and/or a good suit in 3rd seat. Typically I use responses like:

1N = semi-forcing, can be 9-11 balanced with less than 4 trumps
2m = 5-7 with 6+ in the minor (2m openings are not this weak)
2M = normal single raise
Various jumps show raises with 4 trumps, either 9-11 balanced w/4 trumps or 8-9 three-suited

Of course it's possible to get to the three-level with 17 hcp pretty easily, but you're protected by having a nine-card fit and non-flat hands.

[EricK]

There are quite a few issues Drury:

1. It allows LHO a cheap pre-balance at the two level on a known fit auction (eg P (P) 1S (P) 2C allows LHO to bid X, 2D or 2H).
2. It takes away a natural bid.
3. The hands where you are most likely to benefit (i.e. where partner has opened very light) are the hands where you are least likely to be able to use it - because your RHO, with the strongest hand at the table, will probably bid.
4. Conversely, the hands where you get to use it (i.e. where RHO ha passed) are likely to be the hands where you don't need it - because partner will probably have the strongest hand at the table
5. If, because you play Drury, you open some hands which you otherwise wouldn't, then it does look like you are using it as a psychic control.
6. On the other hand, if you would open those hands anyway, then agreeing to play Drury is rather cowardly!

Most people think the upsides compensate for these. Some don't.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Drury is not needed if you open lite in first or second seat.

Nonsense.

Monday I held as dealer:

Scoring: MP

---

Calling this an opening bid even when "opening light" is just ridiculous. Your bid after

P P 1♠ P ?

You can choose between:

* 2♠ (underbid)
* 2♦ (not forcing)
* 1NT (denies fit)

Have fun!

That is how the cookie crumbles!

Quote

1. It allows LHO a cheap pre-balance at the two level on a known fit auction (eg P (P) 1S (P) 2C allows LHO to bid X, 2D or 2H).

Which might be a bad idea if it's only a 4-3 fit.

Quote

2. It takes away a natural bid.

Replaced by 2NT which now shows ♣.

Quote

3. The hands where you are most likely to benefit (i.e. where partner has opened very light) are the hands where you are least likely to be able to use it - because your RHO, with the strongest hand at the table, will probably bid.

Opposite my hand from Monday, I'd want to play 2♠ not 3 opposite a standard Rule-of-20 minimum. Being able to invite without going to the 3-level saves MP and IMPs alike.

Quote

5. If, because you play Drury, you open some hands which you otherwise wouldn't, then it does look like you are using it as a psychic control.

Not if you now open rule-of-18 hands now rather than rule-of-20 which you couldn't before because partner on the hand above would force to the 3-level to invite, fearing to miss a very cold game.

Quote

6. On the other hand, if you would open those hands anyway, then agreeing to play Drury is rather cowardly!

The cowards are the ones standing in the end when the brave have died in battle!

[Gerben42]

Quote

Suppose that you've passed in 1st seat playing an highly aggressive opening system like Magic Diamond.

Partner opens a light 1♠ in third seat and RHO passes:

What should a 2/1 show?
What should a jump to 2NT show?
What show a jump to the three level show?

In my Magic Diamond, opening 1♠ in third seat does no longer show "not too bad 8" to 12 but "whatever you feel like" to 15 HCP so you can use these bids after all. Still these bids are quite rare but the occasional 22-23 point game can be reached this way.

[mike777]

[quote name='hrothgar' date='Nov 6 2007, 06:33 PM'] There's a couple problems with this approach:

1. You end up with massive amounts of dead bidding space. If you open very light in first and second seat, you'll rarely have hands suitable for advancing over partner's light 3rd/4th seat opening.

2. You'll often end up very exposed. Suppose that partner has passed in first or second seat. You open a 10-12 NT in 3rd... You won't have any values or shape when the opponent's put down the red card. Obviously, this is an extreme example, but the basic concept holds true... [/QUOTE]

1. what do you mean? [/QUOTE]
Suppose that you've passed in 1st seat playing an highly aggressive opening system like Magic Diamond.

Partner opens a light 1[sp] in third seat and RHO passes:

What should a 2/1 show?
What should a jump to 2NT show?
What show a jump to the three level show?

The fact that you passed in 1st seat rules out most of the traditional meanings for these bids: You aren't going to have hands suitable for a fit jump or a mini-splinter or even drury. You probably can't ever make game on power...

It might be possible to define some reason meaning for a sequence like

P - 1S
3S

or

P - 1S
2D

however I'm at a loss to know what that would be... [/quote]
Thoughtful system theory inquiry post that made me take time to respond.

here was one response.

"These questions are almost too broad to answer.



"Assuming you meant after partner opens 1M? Probably a hand that you don’t want to play 1N, probably a hand that you SHOULD have opened or nearly opened but did not have the courage of your convictions. Possibly a really good weak 2 bid in diamonds (not available to those who play Modified Mexican). Possibly a hand that defied description either as an opening bid or an opening pre-empt, for example possibly xx,xx,xx,AQJTxxx. Not good enough for 1C and too good for 3C (except possibly at VUL versus not).



..... and I play 2N as Jacoby over a major (“since you opened 1S, I now have a game force hand, example Kxxx,x,AQxxxx,xx, that I did not open”). The responses are different though. 3M says I have a DOG, and you bid more at your own risk, anything else would retain it’s normal meaning. Fo.. and me, that is a little backwards though because we play a souped up version of Jacoby that would not apply here. We would probably just leap to game or bid something to IMPLY slam interest, etc. This change in approach only works well if you use normal Jacoby 2N.



2N over a MINOR opening does not exist. You should have opened.



If you bid it, you own the responsibility for the result. This is also one case where P-----P-----1minor-------P------2N (ugh, does not exist)------P-----3same minor would NOT be forcing, it would be corrective (leave me alone, I want to play 3 of my suit).



Regards,"

[mike777]

Gerben42, on Nov 7 2007, 04:49 AM, said:

Quote

Drury is not needed if you open lite in first or second seat.

Nonsense.

Monday I held as dealer:

Scoring: MP

---

Calling this an opening bid even when "opening light" is just ridiculous. Your bid after

P P 1♠ P ?

You can choose between:

* 2♠ (underbid)
* 2♦ (not forcing)
* 1NT (denies fit)

Have fun!

Nonsense
Easy 2S bid and not close to an underbid. Constructive raises are 3 card support and around 8-11.



Major suit raises still on, same as if first or second seat opener.

btw I agree not close to light opener.

Have fun!

[tysen2k]

ArtK78, on Nov 6 2007, 03:28 PM, said:

I have always been intrigued by the idea of a 10-12 1NT opening bid in third seat opposite a passed partner playing a light initial action system.  What is the logic in that?  You announce to the world that you have less than 13 HCP facing a partner who failed to open in a light opening system.  Does the word double occur to anyone?

We take that to the next level.

We open very light in 1st/2nd and our 3rd seat 1NT is 8-15 HCP with no 4cM. We'd do 0-15 if it were GCC legal. As is, it is legal if there are no conventions after it. 2 of anything as a sign-off response is just fine with us. It works great and is an excellent preempt.

Our other 1-bids are sound and constructive.

Tysen