[pclayton]

jdonn, on Nov 1 2007, 06:07 PM, said:

By the way, if partner happens to have 2 + the trump queen aren't we not only forced to slam, but probably going to be doubled in it by RHO who might even hold 3 aces in that case? Whatever happened to not bidding keycard unless we could handle every response?

This is a good point but its why Kickback is so important on hands like this.

[awm]

Obviously it is helpful if 4♠ is keycard here (kickback). It may be worth trying a 4♠ cue instead if 4nt would be keycard.

It would not really occur to me that partner might have x KQJxxxx x QJxx. Would you really overcall at the four-level on a hand that's not worth opening at the one-level? Yes, I'm sure there are many hands where you'd make a 4♥ preempt, but I think the disciplined approach is not to bid 4♥ on these hands, since if you do partner can never figure out when you have a good hand? And with RHO sitting there with four spades and three aces I think he might find a spade raise?

As for Kx AQJxxx x QJxx, this is not exactly possible since we have the spade king. Change the spade king to spade ace and 5♥ certainly has play (it does need the heart finesse though).

It wouldn't particularly bother me to be in slam opposite Ax KJT9xx Ax AQx or the like, and we can play 5♥ in any case (we are not forced to slam off the heart queen), which is essentially cold.

So basically:

(1) I disagree with your evaluation of the worst possible hands for partner. I think the worst realistic hands for partner put 5♥ on a finesse. If by bidding keycard, I deter partner from bidding 4♥ on x KQJxxxx x QJxx in the future, this is a good result of bidding keycard.

(2) Yes, there will be hands where we end up in 5♥ on a finesse and it goes down. And there may be hands where we reach 6♥ on a finesse and it goes down. But there is a flip side to this business of "you should be conservative in case partner has a bad hand so as not to deter partner from bidding" -- if you routinely take conservative actions like this and miss lay-down slams, partner will start jumping to five hearts on the likes of Ax AKQxxx Axxx x because, after all, he knows you will pass on a full opening bid with a singleton spade if he bids "only" 4♥. Forcing partner to jump to the five level on moderately good hands like this one could be costly too couldn't it?

[jdonn]

awm, on Nov 1 2007, 10:38 PM, said:

As for Kx AQJxxx x QJxx, this is not exactly possible since we have the spade king. Change the spade king to spade ace and 5♥ certainly has play (it does need the heart finesse though).

But you are not in 5♥ on a probably losing finesse to make. You are in 6♥X on a probably losing finesse to go down just 1. Yes kickback would help, then instead of trading a game for a number, you just trade a game for a minus.

I can't believe you think that hand shouldn't bid 4♥. That is....shocking.

As for when partner holds a good hand, he will never jump to 5♥ on your example (he isn't even sure of making 4), and his good hands are far less likely than his minimum hands (no matter what you think his minimum is.) This is a case where the similar argument against going nuts when partner overcalls does not work in reverse. Quite the contrary, partner will take the same sensible policy we should when he has a good hand and not risk minuses looking for slams without extremely good odds.

BTW, you just said that x KQJxxxx x QJxx is not worth a 1 level opening but K xxxx KQJx Kxxx is a "full opening bid". That is even a worse error than me doling out extra spade kings

[Winstonm]

Did partner bid a slow or fast 4H?

I'm not sure why partner, under pressure, could't hold a slightly worse hand that isn't safe at the 5-level, such as xx, AQJxxx, A, QJ9x or A, AJ10xxx, AJ, Jxxx.

[Fluffy]

I don't bid 4♥ on junk so I would make a move. My guess is partner has a 2 suiter, Maybe 5-5. I'd try 4♠ (cue).

[awm]

Okay, to repeat myself: If 4NT is keycard, I will cuebid 4♠. If 4♠ is keycard, I will bid RKC. It seems like Josh wants to make the point (over and over) that if partner shows "two with the queen" I have to play 6♥ instead of 5♥. I am not sure why this is a reason to pass 4♥ with a slam try hand, but there you go.

So if partner has a minimum, like Ax AQJxxx x QJxx with which yes, I would bid 4♥, I will have to play 5♥ on a finesse. Sometimes I will go down in 5♥ when Josh was making 4♥.

On the other hand, if partner has a slightly better hand like Ax AKxxxx x Axxx then I get to play my high-percentage 6♥ contract while Josh is playing 4♥.

And if partner happens to actually have a maximum hand, like Ax AKxxxxx Ax Ax then I get to play my totally cold grand slam when Josh is playing 4♥.

I think bidding 4♥ on x KQJxxxx x QJxx is bad bridge, because partner is entitled to make a slam try with a good hand, or double for penalty when the opponents compete to 4♠. In either case my glorious one keycard and one or so defensive tricks will be a disappointment. I do not want partner passing my 4♥ overcalls in fear that I have a 4♥ preempt. If this is the case, what exactly is my call over 3♠ on Ax AKxxxxx Ax Ax? Can I really make the same bid on a hand where I have nine tops that I make on a 4♥ preempt? Or do I have to bid 5♥, going down (possibly doubled) when partner is weak?