[the hog]

Imps all Green
Some wild and hard hands last night. This was another interesting one.

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The opps passed throughout. The bidding:

1D 2C
2H 2S
3S

Partner's 1D showed 5, 2H showed some 5332 or 4H - not reversing values, 2S was 4sf, 3S showed specifically 4450. Obviously you have some slam interest, but the wasted C values have dampened your enthusiasm somewhat. Do you bid a simple 4S or what. (If you bid 4C, while GF this does NOT agree S, but would show an excellent C suit. If this is your choice of action, pd bids 4D).

[Free]

I'd still go for a look, 5♠ is still a safe level to play if there's no slam imo...

[the hog]

Yes, 5S is probably safe, but HOW do you continue. You have AKJ9 of trumps. If you bid 5S are you not asking pd to bid 6 with decent S? You know he does not have them.

[Free]

There are 2 ways imo: 4NT asking for aces or start control bidding. Depends on systems you play...

You can start with 4♣ or 4♦ (unless it's minorwood). Say you start with 4♣ and partner bids 4♦, I'd have to bid 4♥ last train and partner has to lead further bidding, so I'd start with 4♦ and see if partner has a ♥ stop right away.

I'd personally just bid 4NT and bid accordingly, it's too dangerous to make mistakes. You should've bid 3♠ instead of 2♠, so if you miss grand you've done it in early bidding.

[inquiry]

I am not thrilled with this bidding to date, and a ♣ void does drill my hand. Still, I might be able to scramble to 12 tricks opposite some nasty minimums with a bit of luck.

For instance give partner a subminium like

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You can scamper home with 11 quick tricks in the form of the ♦A. One might imagine 1♥+2♦+1♣+3♣ruffs+4♠ in hand (this assumes a trump lead), so all you need is a successful ♣ ruffing hook to get to 12.

So I am not liking having to signoff in 4♠, but I definetly am not estatic about blasting with 4NT here either. Besides, you may be off the top two hearts.

I guess, I will have to create a bid.... what would 4♦ followed by 5♠ show.

Not having seen the hands... let me tell you how my bidding would go.... over 2♣, I play 2♥ shows specifically 4441 (singleotn ♣). So my partner with 4450 would bid 2♦. I would bid 2♠ and now partner will raise. Sadly I don't know about the ♣ void, but we do both know about the ♠ fit in a focing auction at the three level. Now we are in a serious 3NT situation (my partner will not show void over this).... so... 1♦-2♣; 2♠-3♠; 3NT (serious)-4♦/4♥....

Partner will bid 4♦ (with ACE) over 3NT and 4♥ last train if his hand is still worth slam interest without a diamond honor (thing really good ♥, ♠Q, and solid ♦ missing the ACE/King...

But assuming partner bids 4♦ then I bid 4♥ last train, promising ♣ control... thus making a second slam try below game.

Ben

[Yzerman]

ITS A BIDDERS GAME ... One can never have success playing bridge timidly

There is some merit to everything everyone has mentioned, and personally i think you can proceed with (1) brute force/straightforward approach (blackwood), (2) you can use super science cue-bidding or (3) alas even another approach, JUST BID 6S. Personally I think 7S is out of the picture with only 8 card spade fit (and partner having club void).

I am not too hot on the last train stuff and super-science cue-bidding, I am going to make a simple try with 4D cuebid and if partner not cuebid 4H I will bump 4S to 5S, surely partner will get the picture what to do with KQ hearts. There is neat implication here (i think), IF you cue-bid 4D and partner bid 4H does this 100% promise HA (i believe it should). HENCE, I cue-bid 4D, if partner bid 4H I will blackwood the hand to ensure he not too loaded in point in heart suit (if partner have 1 key with Queen will bid slam if no queen + 1 key will NOT bid slam, if 2 key + queen I bid slam as well). So personally, I will be using cuebidding to ellicit information to try and determine how much of partners hand in heart suit (if partner have 1 key no queen, he must have AKQ or AKJ or hearts).

[inquiry]

Yzerman, on Feb 11 2004, 10:51 PM, said:

I am not too hot on the last train stuff and super-science cue-bidding, I am going to make a simple try with 4D cuebid and if partner not cuebid 4H I will bump 4S to 5S, surely partner will get the picture what to do with KQ hearts. There is neat implication here (i think), IF you cue-bid 4D and partner bid 4H does this 100% promise HA (i believe it should). HENCE, I cue-bid 4D, if partner bid 4H I will blackwood the hand to ensure he not too loaded in point in heart suit (if partner have 1 key with Queen will bid slam if no queen + 1 key will NOT bid slam, if 2 key + queen I bid slam as well). So personally, I will be using cuebidding to ellicit information to try and determine how much of partners hand in heart suit (if partner have 1 key no queen, he must have AKQ or AKJ or hearts).

Mike,

I suggest on Ron's auction (3♠ by opener) that (like you) I would bid 4♦. But unlike you I have no hope (at this point) that partner will take 4♦ as a ♠ fit. The reason is Ron defined the 2♠ bid as 4sf, not necessarily showing ♠'s, so when you know bid 4♦, this could be great hand with ♦ support. So it is not exactly clear that partner will bid 4♠ at all if he can not cue-bid 4♥. For one thing, you KNOW he can also not cue-bid in ♠ (assuming he is thinking ♦'s are trumps, not ♠'s).

Now there is logic that 2♠ should not be fourth suit suit forcing. For one thing, 2♣ may have been game forcing (I play it is). So no need to create a nebulous 2♠ and certainly no need to bid 2♠ before using a strong ♦ raise. But such assumptions require a different partnership undersanding than Ron's description of 2♠ as 4sf.

Now, as much as you dislike last train, I like it more and more... if nothing else if I use lttc I always win the post mortum. If we miss bidding slam, I say "how could you not accept my slam try," and if we get to a slam that goes down I can say "how could you bid on when I didn't insist..."

The only secret is to use LTTC before your partner endplays you in the auction by using it himself....

[the hog]

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The above were the E-W cards. Those who moved were right. With the trumps breaking, Ds 3-3, and the K of C doubleton in the Sth hand, (and even the H hons split), 6S was a very easy make for a flat board.

1D 2C
2H 2S
3S

Ben, you made the comment that playing 2/1 GF you would not regard my pd's 2S bid in the given auction as 4sf. We do play 2/1GF but still play the 4th suit as a stopper ask, so 4sf I guess. How else could pd find out whether I have a S stopper or not, if not by bidding the 4th suit?

[inquiry]

two possibilities suggest themselves...

1) Rebid 3♣... and see what happens. You are GF...., now over a red suit bid by partner, try 3♠
2) Rebid 3♠... playing this as do you have a ♠ stopper...which is more common than the other way... and remember, if you bid 2♣ when holding ♠ you already have a great hand, so little to be gain by 3♠ showing an even greater hand....

I use bids at the three level looking for NT stopper, and I never use 4sf per se in a game forcing situation anyway. I mean, why? You need a ♠ stopper, just bid naturally and see if your partner can show one.

Ben

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Feb 12 2004, 04:10 AM, said:

Yzerman, on Feb 11 2004, 10:51 PM, said:

I am not too hot on the last train stuff and super-science cue-bidding, I am going to make a simple try with 4D cuebid and if partner not cuebid 4H I will bump 4S to 5S, surely partner will get the picture what to do with KQ hearts.  There is neat implication here (i think), IF you cue-bid 4D and partner bid 4H does this 100% promise HA (i believe it should).  HENCE, I cue-bid 4D, if partner bid 4H I will blackwood the hand to ensure he not too loaded in point in heart suit (if partner have 1 key with Queen will bid slam if no queen + 1 key will NOT bid slam, if 2 key + queen I bid slam as well).  So personally, I will be using cuebidding to ellicit information to try and determine how much of partners hand in heart suit (if partner have 1 key no queen, he must have AKQ or AKJ or hearts).

Mike,

I suggest on Ron's auction (3♠ by opener) that (like you) I would bid 4♦. But unlike you I have no hope (at this point) that partner will take 4♦ as a ♠ fit. The reason is Ron defined the 2♠ bid as 4sf, not necessarily showing ♠'s, so when you know bid 4♦, this could be great hand with ♦ support. So it is not exactly clear that partner will bid 4♠ at all if he can not cue-bid 4♥. For one thing, you KNOW he can also not cue-bid in ♠ (assuming he is thinking ♦'s are trumps, not ♠'s).

Now there is logic that 2♠ should not be fourth suit suit forcing. For one thing, 2♣ may have been game forcing (I play it is). So no need to create a nebulous 2♠ and certainly no need to bid 2♠ before using a strong ♦ raise. But such assumptions require a different partnership undersanding than Ron's description of 2♠ as 4sf.

Now, as much as you dislike last train, I like it more and more... if nothing else if I use lttc I always win the post mortum. If we miss bidding slam, I say "how could you not accept my slam try," and if we get to a slam that goes down I can say "how could you bid on when I didn't insist..."

The only secret is to use LTTC before your partner endplays you in the auction by using it himself....

Ben, I think in the given auction 2s-3s-4d should show control with real spade suit. If pd has super fit for diamond, he can bid 3d after 2h, why bother with 2s if you have fit for pd?

fly

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Feb 14 2004, 10:12 AM, said:

Ben, I think in the given auction 2s-3s-4d should show control with real spade suit. If pd has super fit for diamond, he can bid 3d after 2h, why bother with 2s if you have fit for pd?

Fly,

My view is that 2♠ shows ♠s... it was Ron who assigned 4th suit forcing to its meaning in the original post... so on my auction...

1♦-2♣
2♥-2♠
3♠-4♦

would in fact have been a cue-bid

Now in Ron's auction, with 2♠ not promising ♠, and your partner "Raises" spades, there is a grey area. Responder bid "fourth suit forcing" (still silly in my veiw). Given I don't bid this way, my assumption is if you bid 4th suit forcing when not looking for 3NT (since no 3NT bid over 3♠ you are showing very strong slam interest in one of your partners suits (in this case ♥ or ♦), so I would take a 4♦ bid here actually as agreeing ♦ and playing it as minorwood.

But really, i don't want to defend this auction, cause 2♠ should be ♠s imho.

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

I will move, my hand is just too good to play 4♠. 4 NT would be best bid I think. Need to find out about q of ♠ and some aces.

Mike