[Mbodell]

Obviously I know BB teams are generally stronger than VC or SB teams, but is VC > SB or SB > VC? Also how would BB teams do in the VC or in the SB (and vice versa)?

If you took a middle of the pack team from the Bermuda bowl (in this case Brazil, Japan, USA 2, Poland, Indonesia - but think more generally about the median team) and put them in the Venice Cup or the Senior Bowl would they all be run away winners, just top qualifiers, or what?

If you took a bottom team from the Bermuda Bowl (Trinidad and Tobago, Canada, New Zealand) and put them in the Venice Cup or Senior Bowl how would they do?

If you took the top Venice Cup teams (Germany or USA 1) how would they do in the Bermuda bowl or in the Senior Bowl?

How about the top Senior Bowl teams (Canada or USA 2) how would they do in the Venice Cup or in the Bermuda Bowl?

And finally if you took a good open ACBL club team (one that would generally win an unlimited club swiss team game, and be contenders in a sectional/regional swiss team game, but only an -at best- outside shot at winning a strong NABC swiss team event) how would such a team fair in the BB (0 VP? 25 VP? 50 VP? 75 VP? 100 VP?) or VC (better than the Guadeloupe team?) or SB (better than the South African team?)?

[helene_t]

The Dutch ladies used to play in the first division (just under the Master League) but would have been relegated if they didn't have protection against that. Which suggests a level somewhat lower than the Dutch Seniors. But they have probably become stronger in recent years due to Michielsen-Wortel, and will be stronger in the future as more of the promising new generation of female players join them, and Michielsen-Wortel will improve as they gain more experience.

[Codo]

The best german women pair did well in the highest german league and in some open and invitational contests.
The other two pairs are great, but still well below that level, so the complete team would be good enough to play in the middle of the BB.

[mike777]

It is a puzzle why women do not make up a higher percentage of Bermuda, Senior and Junior open teams. I assume they make up more than 50% of the bridge paying membership.

Prediction, that they will compose close to 40% of the WC championship open events, within ten to 20 years.

[paulg]

Codo, on Oct 9 2007, 11:46 AM, said:

The best german women pair did well in the highest german league and in some open and invitational contests.
The other two pairs are great, but still well below that level, so the complete team would be good enough to play in the middle of the BB.

I think that's a little optimistic considering the German Open team did not qualify for the BB by a considerable margin, and two of the teams that did finished below halfway.

Unfortunately Justin's assessment seems more accurate, notwithstanding Auken/von Arnim being a top pair. It's a shame that they do not have a berth on a top US team so we could see them play in a major open tournament.

Paul

[han]

Huh, Auken/Von Arnim is a top pair? Do you think that they are comparable to top pairs like Meckwell or Versace-Lauria? If so, how do you get to this conclusion?

[Codo]

cardsharp, on Oct 9 2007, 08:46 PM, said:

Codo, on Oct 9 2007, 11:46 AM, said:

The best german women pair did well in the highest german league and in some open and invitational contests.
The other two pairs are great, but still well below that level, so the complete team would be good enough to play in the middle of the BB.

I think that's a little optimistic considering the German Open team did not qualify for the BB by a considerable margin, and two of the teams that did finished below halfway.

Unfortunately Justin's assessment seems more accurate, notwithstanding Auken/von Arnim being a top pair. It's a shame that they do not have a berth on a top US team so we could see them play in a major open tournament.

Paul

We can agree to disagree, but v. Armin Auken did play in big international tournements with the best male players and had their share of success- more then once.

About the german open team: They won the champions league this year, beating some fine teams, including Italy and the Netherlands on their way. So I guess that they are able to play in the midfield of the BB too. That the open team did not qualify in the past for the last BBs was due to many problems, but missing talent was maybe one of the smallest.

[Codo]

Hannie, on Oct 9 2007, 10:22 PM, said:

Huh, Auken/Von Arnim is a top pair? Do you think that they are comparable to top pairs like Meckwell or Versace-Lauria? If so, how do you get to this conclusion?

They may had won against Nunes -Fantoni in the quartel final... but who had not?

I just found some of their open results:
2007 3rd EUROPEAN OPEN BRIDGE CHAMPIONSHIPS
Antalya 2007 - Open Teams 5 ZIA
Open team
2004 3rd EUROPEAN BRIDGE CHAMPIONS' CUP
Barcelona 2004 - Open Teams 11 KBSC - GERMANY
Open team
2004 3rd WORLD TRANSNATIONAL MIXED TEAMS CHAMPIONSHIP
Istanbul 2004 - Transnational Teams 1 AUKEN
Transnational team

2003 1st EUROPEAN OPEN BRIDGE CHAMPIONSHIPS
Menton 2003 - Open Teams 5 REPS
Open team

1997 33rd WORLD TEAM CHAMPIONSHIPS
Tunisia 1997 - Transnational Teams 5 AUKEN
Transnational team

For me this is an open top pair. When we still had the invitational tournements for the best pairs in the Netherlands (you might remember) they had been invited and did well between the hottest mal players of the world.

But okay, if you think that top is just Hamann- Soloway, Meckwell and Lauria- Versace, fair enough, in this case, they are not as much at the top as these.

[hrothgar]

Hannie, on Oct 9 2007, 04:22 PM, said:

Huh, Auken/Von Arnim is a top pair? Do you think that they are comparable to top pairs like Meckwell or Versace-Lauria? If so, how do you get to this conclusion?

I seem to recall that Auken - Von Arnim placed well in either the McCallan or the Cap Gemini a few years back

[fred]

Here is how I think about it:

There is a small (less than 10) group of elite pairs in the world. If these pairs play their best then the only pairs that will normally beat them are other elite pairs.

There is a larger (50 or so?) group of not-quite-elite pairs. If these pairs are playing their best they will sometimes beat the elite pairs.

Nobody else has much of a chance of beating the elite pairs in a reasonably long match.

IMO Auken and von Arnim fit solidly into this second group. IMO so do my me and my regular partner (Brad Moss).

IMO at this point in time there are few (if any) women's pairs besides Auken-von Arnim who are in this class.

IMO at this point in time there are several pairs with at least one senior player who are in this class. Seniors are probably represented in the elite class as well.

It may be the case that the difference between the middle teams in the BB vs. VC/SB is greater than the difference between the top teams.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[awm]

If you look at the Bermuda Bowl teams, how many players are qualified to play in the seniors?

My guess is that it would be a pretty substantial percentage (obviously not everyone, but maybe half?) This includes some of the very best players too.

So it seems that plenty of seniors are quite capable of playing at the top level. The senior teams is often the "consolation prize" for whoever didn't quite win their national team trials. Seems clear that the senior teams are only slightly worse than the open teams in many cases.

This is part of why I think it's silly to have the seniors. It's fine to have a special competition for some group that's underrepresented in the open field. I don't think seniors are underrepresented. If we changed the senior age to something like 70 things might be different.

There are a few pairs and a number of individuals in the Venice Cup field who could play in the Bermuda Bowl, and I think the scheduling of the Venice Cup encourages qualifying women to play there rather than in the Bermuda Bowl. However, I doubt that many of the Venice Cup teams would do much in the Bermuda Bowl field.

[mycroft]

It would be interesting to see a Non-Seniors championship.

Other than that, Fred says what I would, with much more experience behind him to rely on.

Michael.

[pclayton]

Nice post Fred.

I would also add that there is a "3rd tier" of pairs that can occasionally knock off the "2nd tier" pairs you allude to. Perhaps that number is in the 150 to 300 range, and it would include many more, if not all, of the top Women's pairs.

Anyone below this tier doesn't count

[mikeh]

pclayton, on Oct 9 2007, 12:42 PM, said:

Nice post Fred.

I would also add that there is a "3rd tier" of pairs that can occasionally knock off the "2nd tier" pairs you allude to. Perhaps that number is in the 150 to 300 range, and it would include many more, if not all, of the top Women's pairs.

Anyone below this tier doesn't count 

'doesn't' or 'can't'?

[Mosene]

Are they all playing the same boards in the semi-finals? You could compare the final contracts in some sort of Butler ranking type system. Granted, the amount of interference in the bidding can alter the final contract, but it would provide an interesting analysis and starting point to see if the differences are due to bidding.

[mike777]

pclayton, on Oct 9 2007, 12:42 PM, said:

Nice post Fred.

I would also add that there is a "3rd tier" of pairs that can occasionally knock off the "2nd tier" pairs you allude to. Perhaps that number is in the 150 to 300 range, and it would include many more, if not all, of the top Women's pairs.

Anyone below this tier doesn't count 

It is a bit difficult to argue against the statement that players outside of the top 300 pairs do not count.

These 600 players are not named and I am not sure what "doesn't count' means.

I would be willing to bet that someone outside these 600 players wins something that "counts" in an open event in the next ten years. I bet more than one player outside these 600 wins something that "counts" in an open event.

[mike777]

fred, on Oct 9 2007, 11:54 AM, said:

Here is how I think about it:

There is a small (less than 10) group of elite pairs in the world. If these pairs play their best then the only pairs that will normally beat them are other elite pairs.

There is a larger (50 or so?) group of not-quite-elite pairs. If these pairs are playing their best they will sometimes beat the elite pairs.

Nobody else has much of a chance of beating the elite pairs in a reasonably long match.

IMO Auken and von Arnim fit solidly into this second group. IMO so do my me and my regular partner (Brad Moss).

IMO at this point in time there are few (if any) women's pairs besides Auken-von Arnim who are in this class.

IMO at this point in time there are several pairs with at least one senior player who are in this class. Seniors are probably represented in the elite class as well.

It may be the case that the difference between the middle teams in the BB vs. VC/SB is greater than the difference between the top teams.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

I do think that if we listed the top ten elite pairs from ten years ago, we would list a different ten today.

I do think that if we listed the top 50 not quite elite pairs from ten years ago, our list would be different today.

The good news is that ten years from now the list will change again.

[han]

mike777, on Oct 9 2007, 03:53 PM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 9 2007, 12:42 PM, said:

Nice post Fred.

I would also add that there is a "3rd tier" of pairs that can occasionally knock off the "2nd tier" pairs you allude to. Perhaps that number is in the 150 to 300 range, and it would include many more, if not all, of the top Women's pairs.

Anyone below this tier doesn't count 

It is a bit difficult to argue against the statement that players outside of the top 300 pairs do not count.

These 600 players are not named and I am not sure what "doesn't count' means.

Neither do I, what does it mean Phil?