[jillybean]

Dealer: South Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ KQT8543 ♥ 6 ♦ ♣ AJ832

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♠
 2♦    4♠    5♦    5♠
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Comments on the bidding please
Is this a 1♠ or 4♠ opener? and why

[kenrexford]

I like 1♠ if I can force this auction. I'd probably Last Train a 5♥ call, myself, though.

[jillybean]

kenrexford, on Oct 12 2007, 07:06 AM, said:

I like 1♠ if I can force this auction.  I'd probably Last Train a 5♥ call, myself, though.

5♥? I missed the the train, check the category of this post

[helene_t]

While it's attractive to preempt under these conditions, the hand as way too strong for 4♠. If playing Namyats, I think that would be ok. If discussing this hand with p maybe 5♠ should be considered.

Agree with Ken that 5♥ as last train would be a nice bid.

[kenrexford]

OK. For B&I, who apparently are not allowed to know what Last Train means, I'd still bid 5♥. Call it a cuebid, call is a splinter-without-the-jump, call it an optomistic source of tricks. Whatever. If partner has extras, he will bid a likely making slam. If not, he will look at you with a dumb look and bid 5♠.

If he bids 6♥, convert.

If he passes, thinking that you are 5-4 and trying to find the best contract, laugh hysterically and take your lumps.

[pclayton]

Normal.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Oct 12 2007, 10:37 AM, said:

OK. For B&I, who apparently are not allowed to know what Last Train means, I'd still bid 5♥. Call it a cuebid, call is a splinter-without-the-jump, call it an optomistic source of tricks. Whatever. If partner has extras, he will bid a likely making slam. If not, he will look at you with a dumb look and bid 5♠.

If he bids 6♥, convert.

If he passes, thinking that you are 5-4 and trying to find the best contract, laugh hysterically and take your lumps.

And if he bids 6 because of his great secondary heart honor(s)?

I know what last train means. I have no clue what it is supposed to mean on this auction. How in the world can partner know what he needs to bid slam? It would be a pointless bid. The auction was normal (maybe that's why you don't like it ).

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♠
 2♦    4♠    5♦    5♠
 Pass  Pass  Pass  


I'm not sure I'd bid 4♠ but we got to the right spot. The free advice after the board from RHO was that this was a weak 2 and Im not allowed to psyche, LHO said I should have opened 4♠.

[jocdelevat]

I had a similar hand and my partner (pick up)intermediate said that you are not allow to open at one level with 10hcp if you play SAYC and I should have open weak 2 or 3.
Any comments about that please.

[matmat]

jillybean2, on Oct 12 2007, 11:27 AM, said:

I'm not sure I'd bid 4♠ but we got to the right spot. The free advice after the board from RHO was that this was a weak 2 and Im not allowed to psyche, LHO said I should have opened 4♠.

i think 4s is not quite right.

some free advice for RHO... should perhaps learn a little bit more about bidding before trying to give others lessons. they should also reread the definition of a psych...

[cherdano]

This hand is certainly worth opening 1♠, but 4♠ is also fine. 2♠ or 3♠ are bad, the hand is way too good or that.

[kenrexford]

Partner bid 4♠ with a hand that does not resemble a 4♠ call, IMO.

As to what 5♥, if Last Train, means. It means to bid slam if you like your hand in context. If partner accepts, we have a shot here.

Take the actual hand. If he likes it, great! Hopefully the club finesse works.

If he held some P.O.C. hand with a bunch of spades and no cards, we'd not play 6♠. If he has scattered junk, like a side Ace and King, we have a good chance here. Even just the heart Ace, a stiff club, and five spades makes this thing a fair bet.

He will not go on many hands where the slam makes, and where the slam may even be lay-down. But, he will definitely not go with those hands if I bid 5♠.

[matmat]

kenrexford, on Oct 12 2007, 11:52 AM, said:

As to what 5♥, if Last Train, means. It means to bid slam if you like your hand in context. If partner accepts, we have a shot here.

sorry.. as someone mentioned above... i just don't see how 5♥ can be last train here...

[cherdano]

kenrexford, on Oct 12 2007, 10:52 AM, said:

Partner bid 4♠ with a hand that does not resemble a 4♠ call, IMO.

As to what 5♥, if Last Train, means. It means to bid slam if you like your hand in context. If partner accepts, we have a shot here.

Take the actual hand. If he likes it, great! Hopefully the club finesse works.

If he held some P.O.C. hand with a bunch of spades and no cards, we'd not play 6♠. If he has scattered junk, like a side Ace and King, we have a good chance here. Even just the heart Ace, a stiff club, and five spades makes this thing a fair bet.

He will not go on many hands where the slam makes, and where the slam may even be lay-down. But, he will definitely not go with those hands if I bid 5♠.

There are 3 ways to play a 5♥ slam try:
1. Last Train
2. Cuebid
3. Showing a second suit

No. 3. is the normal way to play it, and in my opinion also the best. Even if this weren't the B/I forum it would be quite odd to assume any other meaning without discussion (i.e. before asking the OP). If you assume no.3, then 5♥ is baaaaad, both 5♠ and 6♠ would be better, as partner will accept with hands where 6♠ is down and bid 5♠ with hands where slam makes.

[neilkaz]

jocdelevat, on Oct 12 2007, 11:29 AM, said:

I had a similar hand and my partner (pick up)intermediate said that you are not allow to open at one level with 10hcp if you play SAYC and I should have open weak 2 or 3.
Any comments about that please.

You can open anything you'd like. When a pickup makes stupid comments like that, it is guaranteed to be my last hand with him/her.

Didn't he ever here of the rule of 20 ? ..ie most good players think it is clear to open something like this:

AQxxx,KJxxx,xx,x 10 HCP + 10 cards in your two longest suits =20. I don't always open 10 HCP hands when 5-5 but the one I've shown has 2 QT as well and has all 10 HCP in the long suits, ie..it has lots of potential.

If you open the given hand 4♠ you'll miss too many slams, and often, as we the case here, you just outbid the opps in comp anyhow, since you hold the highest suit..ie not a pressing need to preempt them.

.. neilkaz ..

[ralph23]

jocdelevat, on Oct 12 2007, 12:29 PM, said:

I had a similar hand and my partner (pick up)intermediate said that you are not allow to open at one level with 10hcp if you play SAYC and I should have open weak 2 or 3.
Any comments about that please.

Nonsense. Point counting is mainly for balanced hands. You have extraordinary distribution, your suits are good.... opening weak 2 or 3 is really very poor judgment. I cannot imagine any good player doing that.

I would toy with the idea of opening 4, and it has some appeal, but my hand is really too good for that with the good club side-suit.

Your hand meets the Rule of 20 also -- 10 HCP and 12 (!!) cards in your two long suits, if they need a "Rule" to justify your opening one of a suit. The Rule of 20 is plastered all over the Internet.

Ask them where in the SAYC Booklet it forbids opening this hand at the one-level. They can't do that, because there's no such prohibition, and they probably don't know there is a SAYC Booklet, so that should shut them up.

[vuroth]

jocdelevat, on Oct 12 2007, 11:29 AM, said:

I had a similar hand and my partner (pick up)intermediate said that you are not allow to open at one level with 10hcp if you play SAYC and I should have open weak 2 or 3.
Any comments about that please.

10 HCP, so perfect for a weak 2?

---

There's my comment.

[helene_t]

jocdelevat, on Oct 12 2007, 06:29 PM, said:

I had a similar hand and my partner (pick up)intermediate said that you are not allow to open  at one level with 10hcp if you play SAYC and I should have open weak 2 or 3.

A SAYC opening shows at least the playing strength of an average balanced (12)13 hand (possibly with some modifications in 3rh/4th seat). How you evaluate hands, in particular unbalanced hands, is a personal thing. Many but not all ten pointers with a 6-card are too strong for a weak two. I would say. If someone disagrees with that, all you can say is that they judge a particular hand different from how I would have judged it.

He could say that the decision to open a particular 10-pointer at the 1-level was ill-judged in his opinion. He cannot say that it is not allowed.

[keylime]

Your RHO Beaner is a village idiot that will never get anywhere. You have a near slam going hand on pard's minimum trash. Ignore them.

I like 1♠ by a country mile. I also like the 5S rebid showing a shape hand. I think you did well.

Pard's 4♠ call is bad, but common among many players. They should instead offer a limit raise response or a sound 2♠ bid (it's a little heavy for 2, but you own three dead diamonds and a flat hand - you then table 3C and you get to game knowing a lot of opener's hand).

[pclayton]

4♠ is a novice bid.

It might be the universal novice bid. I see it time and time again in club games.