[Mbodell]

Scoring: MP

        1♠
2♣    2♥
3♦    3♥
4NT  5♥

---

Hands rotated, opponents silent throughout, playing sayc w/ 1430. Should I have known to go to 6♥ opposite 5♥ Should I have bid something other than the 3♦ (would 3♥ over 2♥ be game forcing or merely preference and game invitational)? I know bidding blackwood with a void is silly, but on the other hand I wasn't sure what else I could do that would be both slam investigating and agreeing on hearts. In this auction wouldn't 4♥ over 3♥ be to play underselling the hand?

Also, how does one view the results of the other tables? I know how to use the movie functionality to see my results, but not to see how others handled the boards.

[helene_t]

Even if one of the keycards is the "vasted" ♠A you still miss only one keycard, right? I suppose the reason why you didn't bid 6 is that you could have been missing ♦K also. If this is correct, you could have cued 4♣ over 4♥, then if p can cue 4♦ you're satisfied with two keycards (or maybe just blast 6), otherwise you need three keycards (or maybe you just pass p's 4♥).

There is an additional problem, namely that ♣AQ could be behind you. (It will be revealing if LHO can double 4♣). Also p might misunderstand 4♣ and think it's natural (you were playing with a very smart p so the probability of that happening is hardly more than 6.83477%, but still).

With all those reservations, I think you could better have bid a quantitative 5♥ instead of using Blackwood. Your pass on 5♥ looks as if you weren't really interested in the number of keycards.

An immediate 3♠ splinter or Jacoby 2NT is more "correct" but I can understand that you prefered to bid naturally with an unknown p. BTW maybe p should have rebid 3♥ instead of 2♥, might have made you decision easier.

4♥ over 3♥ would not have been a slam invite. P's bidding suggests 5-5 so you can not support hearts with a 3-card after 2♥.

[Gerben42]

As Helene already pointed out, a general rule about RKC Blackwood: You may only stop before slam if you miss 2 Keycards or 1 Keycard + trump Q.

If this information is not enough for you to bid the slam, you shouldn't use it. Also with a void, Blackwood is not a good tool since an Ace may be wasted or not.

[helene_t]

Jlall, on Oct 8 2007, 10:20 AM, said:

Why is 4C a cuebid? All you've done so far is bid clubs, then create a GF with an artificial bid, seems like bidding clubs now is natural.

But with clubs only you could have bid 4♣ over 2♥, or started with a SJS.

[Mbodell]

Lots of good learning, I'm glad we had the individual event, and it was fun playing with you helene_t.

helene_t, on Oct 8 2007, 02:40 AM, said:

Even if one of the keycards is the "vasted" ♠A you still miss only one keycard, right? I suppose the reason why you didn't bid 6 is that you could have been missing ♦K also. If this is correct, you could have cued 4♣ over 4♥, then if p can cue 4♦ you're satisfied with two keycards (or maybe just blast 6), otherwise you need three keycards (or maybe you just pass p's 4♥).
There is an additional problem, namely that ♣AQ could be behind you. (It will be revealing if LHO can double 4♣). Also p might misunderstand 4♣ and think it's natural (you were playing with a very smart p so the probability of that happening is hardly more than 6.83477%, but still).

With all those reservations, I think you could better have bid a quantitative 5♥ instead of using Blackwood. Your pass on 5♥ looks as if you weren't really interested in the number of keycards.

Well I thought partner is a minimum 13-15 hand with 5 hearts and 5 or 6 spades. So I thought if partner has 3 key cards I'll go 6 hearts. If partner has 2 then I'm worried, as you mentioned, about the ♣AQ and/or ♦K. Since it is very likely that one of partners kc is the largely wasted ♠A. That was certainly my dilema.

Do most people play a 4♣ there is a cue of first or second round control of clubs agreeing with hearts as trump? I'm not used to cue bidding second rounds before first so that wouldn't have occurred to me but that certainly would have been great to bid if it meant that. And I'm glad the hands weren't reversed or else I would have taken it as a club suit

Now a quantitative 5♥ I do know and would understand, and likely would have been better, since blackwood commits to the 5 level anyways and a 3 key card partner would surely accept as would a strong 2 kc partner. I think that was probably the bid that I could have bid (as in would have known about the bid ahead of time and would know how to interpret it) that I should have bid (at least if I was going to chicken out over 2 kc).

helene_t, on Oct 8 2007, 02:40 AM, said:

An immediate 3♠ splinter or Jacoby 2NT is more "correct" but I can understand that you prefered to bid naturally with an unknown p. BTW maybe p should have rebid 3♥ instead of 2♥, might have made you decision easier.

3♥ would definitely have made my life easier as then I would have been thinking 6♥ or 7♥ instead of 5♥ or 6♥.
I have to ask about the other two though as I'd probably not recognize them. I'm familiar with Jacoby 2NT over 1M. But 1S-2m-2H-2NT, isn't that to play with a balanced/semi-balanced minor hand, with 10-12 points? Is this understanding wrong?

I'd recognize an immediate splinter, or a splinter into an unbid suit, but can't 3♠ be misunderstood (by me for instance) as delayed support with spades but with a good hand. Say 3 card spade support and 15+ points. I'd have taken 2♠ as minimum hand 10-12 w/ spade preference over hearts, 4♠ as 3 card spade support and 12-14 points, and 3♠ as 3 card spade support, slam investigation, 15+. I guess you could move the delayed support into either 4♠ or 2♠ and assume spade slams aren't on that can't splinter/J2nt and can't have partner get excited over 4♠. Is 3♠ as a heart splinter expert-standard in SA systems?

Also, if anyone could clue me in on how to see other hands from the tournament, that would be great. As I said I know how to do it in view graph with closed room/open room, and I know how to use the movie to see my table, but I can't figure out how to see the other tables for the hands.

[helene_t]

Mbodell, on Oct 8 2007, 10:33 AM, said:

I'd recognize an immediate splinter, or a splinter into an unbid suit, but can't 3♠ be misunderstood (by me for instance) as delayed support with spades but with a good hand.

Right, the opening was 1♠, so 3♠ would not be a splinter

My mistake. I was thinking of 3♠ over 1♥.

[Cascade]

Jlall, on Oct 8 2007, 08:20 PM, said:

Honestly this hand is very tough in an indy.

I am not sure it is so easy in a regular partnership.

[Mr. Dodgy]

Mbodell, on Oct 8 2007, 03:33 AM, said:

Also, if anyone could clue me in on how to see other hands from the tournament, that would be great.  As I said I know how to do it in view graph with closed room/open room, and I know how to use the movie to see my table, but I can't figure out how to see the other tables for the hands.

http://online.bridgebase.com/myhands/hands...422-1191787131-

edit - wrong link

This post has been edited by Mr. Dodgy: 2007-October-08, 04:03

[P_Marlowe]

Mbodell, on Oct 8 2007, 12:11 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

        1♠
2♣    2♥
3♦    3♥
4NT  5♥

---

Hands rotated, opponents silent throughout, playing sayc w/ 1430. Should I have known to go to 6♥ opposite 5♥ Should I have bid something other than the 3♦ (would 3♥ over 2♥ be game forcing or merely preference and game invitational)?
<snip>

Not sure, if your question was answered before:

3H instead of 3D would be game forcing.
But making this bid in an BBO Indy requires lots of
trust, in the actual case we are talking about an Indy
with BBF users, so you could have made the bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[barmar]

Why is 3♥ game forcing? What would the invitational ♥ raise be, then?

[ralph23]

barmar, on Oct 8 2007, 02:24 PM, said:

Why is 3♥ game forcing?  What would the invitational ♥ raise be, then?

If you're playing 2/1 GF then yes, it's forcing to game, but only because 2♣ was GF in the first place.

Playing SAYC, the 2/1 bid promises another bid. And on this hypothetical auction, the ♣ bidder has made another bid: he raised ♥ from 2♥ to 3♥. That fulfills his obligation in "standard" as far as I know, and 3♥ by him now is not forcing in "standard" (whatever the hell that is).

I would be too chicken to just bid 3♥ in an Indy; I'd just gun it out in 6♥ once partner surprises me with 2♥.

[awm]

This is actually a "problem" auction for SAYC, where responder wants to make a forcing raise of opener's second suit in a 2/1 auction. Sure, you can bid 4th suit forcing but then you are often setting the suit via a game bid which partner can always pass. Obviously this problem doesn't exist in 2/1 (although there are other problems) since 3♥ in the given auction is forcing.

My preferred solution in regular partnerships not based on 2/1 GF is to use responder's jump rebid in a minor as a forcing raise. So 1♠-2♣-2♥ and 4♣/4♦ are my forcing heart raises. These bids have no real meaning in SAYC, since the hand that wants to rebid 4♣ naturally would start with a strong jump shift (1♠-3♣) and the (very rare) hand that wants to rebid 4♦ naturally can start with 3♦ (ART GF) and rebid 4♦.

Anyways, in your auction you need to bid six over partner's keycard response -- in general if you bid keycard and find out you are missing only one, you have to bid the slam. The reason is that you have assumed captaincy of the auction -- if you sign off, partner can't go on and bid slam no matter how many extra high cards she has because you could easily be off two aces. Because partner has no way to show "extras" you have to be willing to bid the slam if you're off one ace. If your hand isn't good enough for this (you're afraid that despite having all but one keycard, slam will be lousy) then don't bid RKC.

[helene_t]

I thought of something similar to what Adam just wrote: 4♦ should be the forcing hearts raise. Maybe the general rule is that when no forcing raise would ohterwise be available, the cheapest splinter becomes the forcing raise.

But Adam is right, 4♣ must be a forcing hearts raise as well. Maybe 4♣ shows real clubs while 4♦ is a balanced heart raise with not so good clubs. Of course one could also say that 4♦ denies a club control, but a hand without a club control would rarely bid like that.

Alternatively, if one plays Swiss Raises, 4♦ could be stronger than 4♣. Or show better hearts, if one play Trump Swiss.

One could also agree to play 3♥ as forcing, as it is in Biedermeijer. A 2/1 should promise a hand too strong to let opener pass 1NT with a modest balanced 14-count (many 14-counts open 1NT) so with a 4-4 fit in hearts responder will rarely want to stop below game. But in SAYC, 3♥ is probably not forcing.

[Codo]

I would advice the simple SEF rule:

After your 2/1 is the raise of the second suit game forcing. If one partner has an opener with 54xy and you have 10 HCPs and a fit with the second suit, 3 of this suit as invitational is just a very small target. And if you have the gslam going hands, this system works great. And it is much easier to remember as "4♦ should show the strong heart raise"...

[barmar]

Is 3♥ really that small a target? With players opening some 11-counts these days, you might easily have a combined 21-24 HCP. If opener is minimum he should have compensating distributional assets, but unless you also have the right distribution in your hand a game is still pretty difficult.

But if you don't want to thread that needled, so raising the 2nd suit is forcing, then you might as well use fast arrival to show this minimum 2/1, and jump straight to game. In which case 3♥ should show extras, like it does in 2/1 GF. A jump in the 4th suit should probably then be a splinter, and maybe jumping in your minor should show 6-4 in your minor and opener's 2nd suit, analogous to 1m-1M-6m.

[awm]

The 4-minor bids are "self-alerting" in that they don't have much of a natural meaning. So they're really not that hard to forget. In the auction 1♠-2♣-2♥ I use:

3♥ = NF, usually something like a balanced 11-count with four hearts.
4♥ = GF, but very minimum (fast arrival)
4♣ = shows two of the top three club honors (i.e. a good suit), 4♥, and slam interest
4♦ = shows 1st or 2nd round diamond control, at most one top club, 4♥, slam interest
4th suit force followed by 4♥ over 3♠/3NT = extras, at most 1 top club, no diam control