[jtfanclub]

So here is the concept....

The Thousand Dollar KO ($1K-KO) costs $100 per team for the first round. All future rounds are free. It is completely unbracketed, random pairings.

The entire regional tournament starts on Tuesday night and ends on Sunday afternoon. For the $1K-KO:

Round 1: Tuesday night
Round 2: Wednesday Afternoon
Round 3: Wednesday Night
Round 4: Thursday Afternoon
Round 5: Thursday Night
Round 6: Friday morning (if necessary)
Round 7: Friday afternoon (if necessary)

Straight single-elimination, 26 board rounds. First prize is $1000 (or $1020) divided equally among the players in the team, 2nd place is $300, 3rd place is a handshake. This would replace the 1st Bracketed KO, which normally runs Tuesday night and all of Wednesday.

If the $1K KO people are all people who would have been in the Bracketed KO or the Open Pairs, then the breakeven point is 64 tables. If they were people who weren't going to show up until Friday otherwise (or at all), then the number gets a lot lower: about 16 tables.

Of course, it's not all about the prize money. The average person would get both more master points and find it cheaper if they managed to make it past the first two rounds, compared to a Bracketed KO. And hey, even if you didn't make it into the later rounds, maybe that's because you got to play 26 boards against one of the top teams in the country.

What do people think of this idea?

[awm]

I think most bracket one teams would sign up for this. It's cheaper than a regular KO unless you lose in the first round (okay about the same cost if you lose in second round) and the possibility of prize money has its appeal. You'll also get the teams who want to "play up", a group of people who are overrepresented on these forums but not a very high percentage of bridge players as a whole.

For myself, I'd sign up if I had a whole regional off from work in which to play, and I had a good team. Unfortunately fairly frequently neither of these conditions holds for me.

[helene_t]

Straight single elimination ... so only the gays and the couples survive?

Anyway, sounds like a good idea if I were in the region anyway. I would need a flexible schedule, though. Except if I´m on a bad team so that I know I will have the rest of the week off.

Where is it btw?

[TimG]

I don't think this amount of prize money would draw any extras, certainly not "one of the top teams in the country" that wasn't already planning on attending.

One of the reasons that there was a switch from open to flighted and then to bracketed KOs is that players didn't like paying an entry fee to play in an event that they were sure they were going to exit after a round, two if they got lucky. I don't see why people would be willing to pay double for the same opportunity.

If an organization really wanted to make a splash, they ought to make the $1K-KO that starts a day early free to all entrants. See if that doesn't pick up a few more Wednesday-Thursday entries from people who come for the KO and get knocked out.

[jtfanclub]

helene_t, on Oct 9 2007, 03:50 PM, said:

Where is it btw?

I'm just spitballing at the moment...it woudn't be until 2009 anyways.

Quote

If an organization really wanted to make a splash, they ought to make the $1K-KO that starts a day early free to all entrants. See if that doesn't pick up a few more Wednesday-Thursday entries from people who come for the KO and get knocked out.

An interesting thought...but I'm shying away from that, at the moment.

[TimG]

I have, in the past, been involved in regional bridge organization. One thing that was a bit of a surprise to me was the number of players who come for the mid-week events and then leave before the weekend arrives. At just about every regional tournament, Saturday is the best day for table count, but often Wednesday or Thursday is the second best. The mid-week crowd is more of a senior event crowd -- not surprising since retired folks can more easily make weekday events.

You might have a look at this sort of thing. It might not be attractive to the senior crowd to show up a day early to play in a money KO. But, it might be attractive to the weekend crowd to show up a day early for a money KO. So, you might actually get a better result (entry wise and pulling a couple extra days out of participants that were going to show up for part of the regional anyway) if you plan the event for Thursday or Friday rather than earlier in the week.

[han]

Sounds interesting, I have the same thoughts as Adam.

[Mbodell]

It seems like there are 3 different things going on with this:

1. Not bracketed
2. No cost past first round (I.e., table fees for later round payed by first round - unless people need to pay table fees in addition to the $100 prize pool)
3. Prize money

I'm not sure mixing all 3 together makes sense.

3 provides pay offs for the "better" teams and may scare some away.

2 means that the worse teams are further sponsoring the better ones by paying the table fees for the later rounds.

1 means the lower level BCD players don't have a real chance especially when combined with 3 and 2.

I'm not sure if you want to mix 1+2+3 if one of your goals is to draw lots of people rather than reward top teams. If you wanted to draw more people, you'd almost want to make it handicapped (worse teams get +IMP handicaps in matches), more like a non-pro golf event, so that anyone can win who plays their top game.

That said, the cost is very modest ($25/person), especially when compared to something like a poker tournament. I'd be willing to play if I had a decent team and didn't have work commitments, which like awm says is rarely.

I agree the weekend version might be a better scheduling for people.

[hrothgar]

Mbodell, on Oct 10 2007, 07:06 AM, said:

It seems like there are 3 different things going on with this:

1. Not bracketed
2. No cost past first round (I.e., table fees for later round payed by first round - unless people need to pay table fees in addition to the $100 prize pool)
3. Prize money

I'm not sure mixing all 3 together makes sense.

3 provides pay offs for the "better" teams and may scare some away.

2 means that the worse teams are further sponsoring the better ones by paying the table fees for the later rounds.

1 means the lower level BCD players don't have a real chance especially when combined with 3 and 2.

I'm not sure if you want to mix 1+2+3 if one of your goals is to draw lots of people rather than reward top teams. If you wanted to draw more people, you'd almost want to make it handicapped (worse teams get +IMP handicaps in matches), more like a non-pro golf event, so that anyone can win who plays their top game.

That said, the cost is very modest ($25/person), especially when compared to something like a poker tournament. I'd be willing to play if I had a decent team and didn't have work commitments, which like awm says is rarely.

I agree the weekend version might be a better scheduling for people.

what he said

[jtfanclub]

Mbodell, on Oct 9 2007, 11:06 PM, said:

It seems like there are 3 different things going on with this:

1. Not bracketed
2. No cost past first round (I.e., table fees for later round payed by first round - unless people need to pay table fees in addition to the $100 prize pool)
3. Prize money

I dislike the combination of bracketed and cash. Or a handicap.

For bracketed, the amount you win is so small that it isn't worth doing. Take your normal 10 team bracket. 4 rounds to win. That means the winners and runners-up paid $160 for the privilege of competing. So the minimum draw to bring in people for the cash would be what, $500? Something like that. But that's an additional $50 cost in prize money per team. I don't think it's workable.

Handicap is a terrible idea in bridge, IMHO. We'd get a few money bridge card sharks in with 5 masterpoints apieces who would rip it apart. And it would push away the LOLs with their 2000 masterpoints who aren't a match for the young guns.

So in my mind, 1+3 are pretty much married.

I think I'll get the crowds....

1) It's simply not much more than a regular game. The cash will make it exciting.

2) The masterpoints if I do get crowds will be excellent. A lower ranked team will get more MPs just getitng through two rounds than winning a bracketed KO. While a majority of people prefer bracketed KOs to the old-style unbracketed, there's still a significant minority who would rather go against the best. I don't need to draw in 10,000 people who otherwise would not have come to make this a success. I don't even need 100.

3) It will hopefully be a 'prestige' event. I'm hoping that "I won the Thousand Dollar KO" will resonate better than "I won the Tuesday-Wednesday Bracketed Knockout", and therefore clients will be willing to pay experts to play in it. I'm not expecting to see USA1 play in it together, but maybe I can get other professional teams to play with clients individually, especially if they were already planning to be there over the weekend. Heck, I'll even throw in trophies if that'll help.

4) I think some people will pay for the privilege of playing against the best. That I don't expect many complete teams of experts also gives them a shot- it's a lot easier to beat Meckstroth partnered with somebody like me than to beat Meckwell.

As for your #2, I just...I dunno. Absolutely, I could do $50 per team per round instead of $100 per team period. But if it lasted 6 rounds, the guys coming in 2nd would only get their money back, while the guys coming in 3rd and 4th would end up putting in $250 and getting nothing. It just seems like a bad gamble. The losers with my #2 would be the people who lose in the first round, but who joins a tourney expecting to lose in the first round?

Still spitballing here, though.

[helene_t]

The total fee is 128*100=12800, right? I'm not saying that a 10% award rate is unreasonable, but I suppose it won't attract the real money sharks.

[TylerE]

If not brackets, it should be A/X - B/C/D.

[jtfanclub]

helene_t, on Oct 10 2007, 10:42 AM, said:

The total fee is 128*100=12800, right? I'm not saying that a 10% award rate is unreasonable, but I suppose it won't attract the real money sharks.

I'm hoping for 64 tables, or at least that's the breakeven point vs. Bracketed KO. Of the $100 entry fee, $80 goes to the normal tournament fees, and $20 goes into the pool. I expect to 'lose' money the first few times, though.

TylerE:

Quote

If not brackets, it should be A/X - B/C/D.

OK, that would certainly be more doable than the standard 10-per-bracket or a handicap, and wouldn't give the sharks an edge (the sharks are, IMHO, B players with points like D players).

Keep in mind that regardless of what we do, there will be a flighted Open pair going on at the same time. People who don't wish to play in the $1K will have other options, possibly including another KO (though that hurts the pool).

[TylerE]

Another idea would be to charge table fees normally per round, and tack, say, a $40 per team "prize fee" into the first entry. Prize money would come exclusively from this pool. First place gets the prize pool, final round loser gets their card fees back in free play tickets, or some such. This would make it scale fairly for any size field, since the total prize money would be proportional to the # of teams and the money spent. In a 10 team bracket, it would be, say, a 1 in 10 chance of winning $400. In a 100 team field 1 in 100 chance of winning $4000, etc.

[TimG]

jtfanclub, on Oct 10 2007, 11:48 AM, said:

I'm hoping for 64 tables, or at least that's the breakeven point vs. Bracketed KO.

What's the normal draw for a bracketed KO on the days you want to hold the money KO?

I would expect the top bracket players to enter the money KO. Maybe half of the usual 2nd bracket players. And, just a handful from other brackets. Money only adds excitement if you think you might get some of the prize pool. And, I don't think risking $25 to win $250 is enough to add much excitement for most players. I think you'd need to break the four digit barrier per player, not per team, to add any real excitement.

$250 is only a fraction of what a typical regional pro would get for his six-sessions in the event (if you get your goal of 64 teams).

Does your District allow teams to play up in bracketed events? District 25 (New England) does and there is hardly ever a request. I believe the ACBL allows such requests in bracketed KOs at NABCs. You might want to check with them to see if that is indeed their policy and if so, how many take advantage. That might give you some idea about how many would actually pay a premium to "play up" in your event.

[jtfanclub]

TimG, on Oct 10 2007, 02:39 PM, said:

What's the normal draw for a bracketed KO on the days you want to hold the money KO?

I'm still in the process of checking some of this out.

So your thought is, money only for the top bracket, but anybody can play in the top bracket? Makes it less 'special' but certainly easier to get approved. The other advantage is that only the prize money becomes an issue- after all, it takes the same number of directors, rooms etc. whether it's for money or not.

The problem is going to be that it will 'lose' money. If, for example, we get only 32 teams total in the top bracket and 16 of those were people who otherwise wouldn't have shown up for two days, we'll 'lose' about $640 (the amount that the prize pool won't cover). But it doesn't cost us any more to have another 16 tables outside of supplies and sanctioning fees, so we'd actually break even, and come in plus if these people play in something else when they lose in the first round.

So you're right. The next thing to do is figure out the normal draw for the previous years, and since I'm looking to do it in 2009, to take a close look at what happens in 2008.

[TimG]

You can almost be sure that it will not be a success in the first year. People are slow to change their habits. Make sure that when you pitch the idea to the board, you plan for losing money in the first year, but slowing increasing the draw when you repeat the event. Resist any pleas from the board to try it on a one year trial basis.