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Why they have a gold star Can you make the same play?
#1
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Posted 2004-February-10, 10:14
--Ben--
#2
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Posted 2004-February-10, 10:59
Looking at the North hand, you have 5 losers: 1♠, 1♥ and 3♣. I'd take ♦A, play ♥A (to see if ♥s aren't 4-0), play ♣ to the Ace and ♣Q, and ruff 2♣s (first with the J, second with the K. And later I'll give away one more ♠ and possibly a ♥ (I'll finesse if West follows).
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#3
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Posted 2004-February-10, 11:10
Hi Free,
Maybe you should leave the beginner/intermediate problems to the beginner/intermediate players.., but then again, if you are going to get them wrong, maybe you should be working on them.
Ben
Maybe you should leave the beginner/intermediate problems to the beginner/intermediate players.., but then again, if you are going to get them wrong, maybe you should be working on them.
Ben
--Ben--
#4
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Posted 2004-February-10, 11:27
Well, if you name it "why they have a gold star", I think it doesnt belong in the B/I forum. Unless ofcourse...
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#5
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Posted 2004-February-10, 11:35
Free, on Feb 10 2004, 12:27 PM, said:
Well, if you name it "why they have a gold star", I think it doesnt belong in the B/I forum. Unless ofcourse...
Oh, I don't know. This hand has a couple of issue. A gold star played it and made the normal, more or less standard imp play. Don't you think giving a problem in which a beginner or intermediate has a very realistic chance to make the very same "good play" and tie the star has some merit. This is a problem in which most intermediates, with study, will get right. With an important little lesson for beginners as well.
Ben
--Ben--
#6
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Posted 2004-February-10, 19:05
This hand has a few interesting issues about it. But I can't say anything, since if I get it wrong, which I won't, people will haunt me forever hehehe. And ben is right it is not all that difficult. So I will others struggle first....
Mike
Mike
“If there is dissatisfaction with the status quo, good. If there is ferment,
so much the better. If there is restlessness, I am pleased. Then let there
be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.”
so much the better. If there is restlessness, I am pleased. Then let there
be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.”
#7
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Posted 2004-February-10, 19:23
i never (well almost) never make comments when people miss a problem. But FREE is well above intermediate level, and the problems I post in the beginner/intermediate forum are not challenging of a player of his ability. So my poking fun at him is actually, in a way, a compliment.... as he must be good to get me to continue fuss at him for solving beginner problems... Now, after several days of no responses from the beginners (I hope they at least read and think about the problems even though they tend not tor respond...) anyone can answer them,... since they need to br answered eventually.
ben
ben
--Ben--
#8
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Posted 2004-February-10, 20:11
Hmmm, I guess I wont read this B/I forum anymore, since I answer to fast...
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#9
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Posted 2004-February-11, 15:25
Ok.. it is finally time to answer this one.
I am sure that most beginners have heard the old chestnut.. ."Eight ever, nine never" referring to rather or not to play for the drop or the hook of a missing queen. Here is a hand with 9 trumps missing the queen. If you blindly apply eight ever nine-never, you cash two top hearts and see what happened. But 8 ever, 9 never doesn't take the hand as a whole into account.
What every expert knows, is to look at the entire hand. In fact, Free did this in his intial response. You look for obvious winners and losers, and potential winners and losers.
For potential winners, you might make 12 tricks, even 13 is not impossible on some distribtuions. If the club hook wins and the !SQ falls and trumps are 2-2 life is rosey (well you could have bid slam), with 4♥ in your hand, 1♦, 2♣ 3♠ and 1♠ and 2♦ ruff in dummy for all 13 tricks. So an optomist plows ahead, fearless predicting a lot of tricks.
Experts tend to be pestimistic during play. They don't worry about 2-2 trump splits and ♠Q falling in two rounds and ♣ hook on side. Instead they worry about 3-1 and 4-0 trumps, four ♠ to the queen behind the ♠J and the ♣ hook being off. In this case, instead of 13 tricks, they could have the potential 5 losers FREE saw in his first response (although one will disapperar).
So how do they play? They want to protect against WEST having something like this hand...
With this hand, for instance, if you take the line suggest above of starting the ♥A and lead a ♥ what do you do when EAST instead of following suit (the suggestoin was to finessee), EAST shows out? Now you have to grab your KING. But then WEST can get in with the ♣K or ♠Q, and play a deadly third round of trumps. Now you win 4 ♥ in dummy (you can ruff or win off top), and one ♠ ruff in your hand, plus 1♣, 1♦, and 2♠.. that only comes to 9 tricks.
So the expert, worrying about this scenerao, wins the ♥ king first, and then leads a low ♥ to dummy. If the WEST shows out, North wins the ♥ King, and tries the ♣ hook. Even if this hook loses, South will be able to fuff 2♣ in his hand and win 1♣, 2♣ ruffs, 2♠, 1♦ and 4 ♥ in dummy.
If the ♥ hook wins and EAST shows out, now South wins 5♥, 1♣, 1♦, 2♠ and a sure ♣ ruff. So this ♥ hook is a safety play. It keeps the danger hand off the lead when hearts don't split well. And what if the ♥ hook loses to the doubleton ♥Queen? Still no problem, because then you can simply and safely ruff not one, but two ♣ in your hand, bring your total to 4♥+2♠+1♦+1♣+2♣ ruffs....
So the important lessons for beginners...
1) When it looks too easy (13 possible tricks), look for what can go wrong
2) Old sayings like eight ever, nine never are not to be followed blindly
3) At imps, play as safe as you can for your contract, taking all the suits into consideration.
Thanks to my good friend bendin for pointing this hand out to me so that I could post it here...
Ben
I am sure that most beginners have heard the old chestnut.. ."Eight ever, nine never" referring to rather or not to play for the drop or the hook of a missing queen. Here is a hand with 9 trumps missing the queen. If you blindly apply eight ever nine-never, you cash two top hearts and see what happened. But 8 ever, 9 never doesn't take the hand as a whole into account.
What every expert knows, is to look at the entire hand. In fact, Free did this in his intial response. You look for obvious winners and losers, and potential winners and losers.
For potential winners, you might make 12 tricks, even 13 is not impossible on some distribtuions. If the club hook wins and the !SQ falls and trumps are 2-2 life is rosey (well you could have bid slam), with 4♥ in your hand, 1♦, 2♣ 3♠ and 1♠ and 2♦ ruff in dummy for all 13 tricks. So an optomist plows ahead, fearless predicting a lot of tricks.
Experts tend to be pestimistic during play. They don't worry about 2-2 trump splits and ♠Q falling in two rounds and ♣ hook on side. Instead they worry about 3-1 and 4-0 trumps, four ♠ to the queen behind the ♠J and the ♣ hook being off. In this case, instead of 13 tricks, they could have the potential 5 losers FREE saw in his first response (although one will disapperar).
So how do they play? They want to protect against WEST having something like this hand...
With this hand, for instance, if you take the line suggest above of starting the ♥A and lead a ♥ what do you do when EAST instead of following suit (the suggestoin was to finessee), EAST shows out? Now you have to grab your KING. But then WEST can get in with the ♣K or ♠Q, and play a deadly third round of trumps. Now you win 4 ♥ in dummy (you can ruff or win off top), and one ♠ ruff in your hand, plus 1♣, 1♦, and 2♠.. that only comes to 9 tricks.
So the expert, worrying about this scenerao, wins the ♥ king first, and then leads a low ♥ to dummy. If the WEST shows out, North wins the ♥ King, and tries the ♣ hook. Even if this hook loses, South will be able to fuff 2♣ in his hand and win 1♣, 2♣ ruffs, 2♠, 1♦ and 4 ♥ in dummy.
If the ♥ hook wins and EAST shows out, now South wins 5♥, 1♣, 1♦, 2♠ and a sure ♣ ruff. So this ♥ hook is a safety play. It keeps the danger hand off the lead when hearts don't split well. And what if the ♥ hook loses to the doubleton ♥Queen? Still no problem, because then you can simply and safely ruff not one, but two ♣ in your hand, bring your total to 4♥+2♠+1♦+1♣+2♣ ruffs....
So the important lessons for beginners...
1) When it looks too easy (13 possible tricks), look for what can go wrong
2) Old sayings like eight ever, nine never are not to be followed blindly
3) At imps, play as safe as you can for your contract, taking all the suits into consideration.
Thanks to my good friend bendin for pointing this hand out to me so that I could post it here...
Ben
--Ben--
#10
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Posted 2004-February-12, 12:36
Is there something wrong with a cross-ruff strategy for this IMP board?
Win AD, ruff a diamond low, take the club finesse, assume it loses and they come back with a trump - win high. Cash one spade, then AC. Ruff another diamond, ruff a club low. Return to dummy with a spade, ruff another club (Jack), and cash the other high heart.
That's a total of 10: two high trump, four ruffs, two spades, AD, AC (and one more club if finesse is onside), and it seems to work even if trump are 4-0.
Maybe I'll be lucky and booted from the forum , but more likely will be told why this isn't a good idea.
Charis
Win AD, ruff a diamond low, take the club finesse, assume it loses and they come back with a trump - win high. Cash one spade, then AC. Ruff another diamond, ruff a club low. Return to dummy with a spade, ruff another club (Jack), and cash the other high heart.
That's a total of 10: two high trump, four ruffs, two spades, AD, AC (and one more club if finesse is onside), and it seems to work even if trump are 4-0.
Maybe I'll be lucky and booted from the forum
, but more likely will be told why this isn't a good idea.Charis
#11
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Posted 2004-February-12, 13:20
Hi, why would you want to be booted from the forum? 
Feel totally safe disagreeing with anyone here...bridge is a game of opinions, and we all have quite different ones.
Your line of cashing and cross ruffing is an equally great one, and may handle the 4-0 trump split easier than the one of cashing the ♥KING first as proposed in the problem (although didn't say which ♥ to win first. With 4-0 ♥ and doubleton ♣K offsides, both lines require careful play. You should however, consider yourself with full credit for finding a very good alterantive line. The lesson arose here when I was asked why a gold star player choose to hook WEST for the ♥ queen rather than playing for the drop or playing EAST for it. Obviously that question never arises in your solution.
Ben
Feel totally safe disagreeing with anyone here...bridge is a game of opinions, and we all have quite different ones.
Your line of cashing and cross ruffing is an equally great one, and may handle the 4-0 trump split easier than the one of cashing the ♥KING first as proposed in the problem (although didn't say which ♥ to win first. With 4-0 ♥ and doubleton ♣K offsides, both lines require careful play. You should however, consider yourself with full credit for finding a very good alterantive line. The lesson arose here when I was asked why a gold star player choose to hook WEST for the ♥ queen rather than playing for the drop or playing EAST for it. Obviously that question never arises in your solution.
Ben
--Ben--
#12
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Posted 2004-February-12, 14:29
> Hi, why would you want to be booted from the forum?
> Feel totally safe disagreeing with anyone here...
Oh! I was just playing off your response to Free where such a comment
was a compliment
Thanks for the response
Charis
> Feel totally safe disagreeing with anyone here...
Oh! I was just playing off your response to Free where such a comment
was a compliment
Thanks for the response
Charis
Page 1 of 1
1NT (P) 2♦ (DBL)
3♥ (P) 3♠ (P)
4♣ (P) 4♦ (P)
4♥ all pass
Opening lead ♦JACK
Your slam auction stalled in four hearts. This is imps, so winning 10 tricks should be your first goal. Plan play (if you cash high ♥ both follow.)
T1. ♦J-4-3-A