[hrothgar]

Here's a pair of hands from the same team match

IMPS. Red versus White. South deals

♠ Axx
♥ KQJx
♦ x
♣ KT863

♠ x
♥ 9xxxx
♦ AKQx
♣ AQx

Our auction (playing 2/1):

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
5♥ - (P) - 6♥ - All pass

Thoughts, comments?

I'm particularly interested in the relative merits of X versus 5♥ versus a (forcing) pass with the South hand.

[pclayton]

Way too good for a splinter with a hand like this. Too many controls and the club suit is just good enough. There are so many good things about this hand and it just creates a headache for partner who will probably shrug and bid 4♥. I have no qualms with 2♣ or a forcing raise.

Put it this way, if East doesn't accommodate you with a 4♠ call, what do you think the South hand does? Its the most obvious 4♥ call in the world.

5♥ is just amazing.

6♥ is amazing in the fact that any normal 5♥ call gives you a laydown grand.

By the way, 1♥ is a very nice call. Well done.

[mikeh]

pclayton, on Oct 1 2007, 10:19 AM, said:

Way too good for a splinter with a hand like this. Too many controls and the club suit is just good enough. There are so many good things about this hand and it just creates a headache for partner who will probably shrug and bid 4♥. I have no qualms with 2♣ or a forcing raise.

Put it this way, if East doesn't accommodate you with a 4♠ call, what do you think the South hand does? Its the most obvious 4♥ call in the world.

5♥ is just amazing.

6♥ is amazing in the fact that any normal 5♥ call gives you a laydown grand.

By the way, 1♥ is a very nice call. Well done.

what he said

[matmat]

mikeh, on Oct 1 2007, 10:28 AM, said:

what he said

i agree with the old, wise people

[hrothgar]

pclayton, on Oct 1 2007, 06:19 PM, said:

Way too good for a splinter with a hand like this. Too many controls and the club suit is just good enough. There are so many good things about this hand and it just creates a headache for partner who will probably shrug and bid 4♥. I have no qualms with 2♣ or a forcing raise.

Put it this way, if East doesn't accommodate you with a 4♠ call, what do you think the South hand does? Its the most obvious 4♥ call in the world.

5♥ is just amazing.

6♥ is amazing in the fact that any normal 5♥ call gives you a laydown grand.

By the way, 1♥ is a very nice call. Well done.

Hi Phil:

Any chance that you could focus on the actual question that I posed?

Lets assume that your agreements are such that your partner started with a 4♦ and RHO overcalled 4♠. What bids would you consider at this point in time?

[matmat]

hrothgar, on Oct 1 2007, 10:32 AM, said:

...
Thoughts, comments?
...

Any chance that you could focus on the actual question that I posed? 

Lets assume that your agreements are such that your partner started with a 4♦ and RHO overcalled 4♠.  What bids would you consider at this point in time?

the original question did invite thoughts and comments, richard.

i certainly have extras, but i have values opposite a sing/void and my hearts stink. I think X is in order no? I do have a little extra, and i do have a spade control, but the ♦AKQ is a big turnoff...

[pclayton]

hrothgar, on Oct 1 2007, 07:32 AM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 1 2007, 06:19 PM, said:

Way too good for a splinter with a hand like this. Too many controls and the club suit is just good enough. There are so many good things about this hand and it just creates a headache for partner who will probably shrug and bid 4♥. I have no qualms with 2♣ or a forcing raise.

Put it this way, if East doesn't accommodate you with a 4♠ call, what do you think the South hand does? Its the most obvious 4♥ call in the world. 

5♥ is just amazing.

6♥ is amazing in the fact that any normal 5♥ call gives you a laydown grand.

By the way, 1♥ is a very nice call. Well done.

Hi Phil:

Any chance that you could focus on the actual question that I posed?

Lets assume that your agreements are such that your partner started with a 4♦ and RHO overcalled 4♠. What bids would you consider at this point in time?

Hi Richard:

I was responding to

Quote

"Thoughts, comments?"

.

If you wanted to limit the discussion to the 5♥ then you should have said so.

The reason I don't like 5♥ is our values are all in the wrong place. A splinter to me looks more like: Axxx, Kxxx, x, Kxxx. We are walloping 4♠ but 5♥ looks very touch and go.

So I'd double.

[hrothgar]

Sorry: It would be useful to understand what people consider prototypical examples hands for the 1♥ opener that are consistent with the following auctions

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
X

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
5♥

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
P - (P) - X - (P)
5♥

[TimG]

Trying again:

Wouldn't opener bid 5H with something like:

x
ATxxxx
Qxx
AQx

(which doesn't make the grand particularly good)?

[cherdano]

hrothgar, on Oct 1 2007, 10:23 AM, said:

Sorry: It would be useful to understand what people consider prototypical examples hands for the 1♥ opener that are consistent with the following auctions

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
X

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
5♥

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
P - (P) - X - (P)
5♥

Among these questions, the first two hardly matter. The point is that a splinter should be a very descriptive bid, and so both 5♥ and double are final decisions. Really the first question you should be asking is what a 4♦ splinter shows, which is typically 10-12 hcp aside from the singleton and 4 trumps. The given hand is too strong with 13 very nice hcp including 4 great trumps.
So the last sequence is a slam invite opposite a splinter, probably asking for good trumps.

[pclayton]

TimG, on Oct 1 2007, 08:27 AM, said:

Trying again:

Wouldn't opener bid 5H with something like:

x
ATxxxx
Qxx
AQx

(which doesn't make the grand particularly good)?

I think I'd key card with a hand this pure. We don't need much for slam.

[hrothgar]

cherdano, on Oct 1 2007, 07:36 PM, said:

Among these questions, the first two hardly matter. The point is that a splinter should be a very descriptive bid, and so both 5♥ and double are final decisions. Really the first question you should be asking is what a 4♦ splinter shows, which is typically 10-12 hcp aside from the singleton and 4 trumps. The given hand is too strong with 13 very nice hcp including 4 great trumps.

There are a wide variety of sequences in which players multiplex distinct hand types into a single bid. For example, consider the following 2NT rebid in a 2/1 auction

1♥ - 2♦
2NT

Its quite common that the 2NT bid shows either a minimum stength balanced hand or a very strong hand that is planning to take control of the auction. I don't see any reason why a splinter can't be treated the same way. Opener bids presuming that responder holds hand type X. Responder is allowed to carry on with hand type Y.

For what its worth, I agree that my splinter was a poor call. In retrospect, my trumps are way too good. Partner is going to worry about trump losers and probably won't cooperate with any slam tries that I make. I probably should have bid 2NT. (I think that the club suit is too weak for a 2/1)

With this said and done, lets assume that your partner bid 4♦ and you can even assume that it shows 10-12 HCP...

What hand type would you expect for

Double
Pass
5♥
Pass followed by Pull

[pclayton]

Quote

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
X

Double means: We can set 4♠ and we probably can't make 5♥. I think it warns of diamond duplication too. A typical hand would be: ♠AJx ♥Qxxx♦KQx ♣xx.

Quote

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
5♥

5♥ is just competitive. It doesn't invite 6, and it may be based on a weak opener with extra length in hearts without a lot of defense to 4♠. I'd say: ♠x ♥KQJxxxx ♦xx ♣Axx

Quote

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
P - (P) - X - (P)
5♥

This auction doesn't exist in my mind. Pass isn't forcing (for me anyway) over 4♠ so its inconceivable a hand that passes pulls a double of 4♠.

One more sequence to consider:

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)
Pass

Pass for me means "No Opinion", It isn't forcing, and it doesn't commit us to 5♥ or 4♠ doubled. It definitely shows a minimum. I'd say a typical hand is: ♠Kxx, ♥KJxxx, ♦xxx, ♣Ax.

[ArtK78]

One issue that has not been addressed is what the partnership understanding is for the values for a splinter. Different partnerships have different agreements. In one of my partnerships, we have ways of showing a mini-splinter (game invitational), a splinter (standard type with 10-12 HCP plus the singleton - game forcing but nothing extra) and a maxi-splinter (extra values - like the given hand, without a good outside suit).

If the club suit were stronger, I would certainly suggest bidding 2♣ over 1♥ and supporting hearts in a game forcing auction. This club suit is nothing to write home about. The question then becomes whether the hand is too good for a splinter bid. It is stronger than a classic splinter, but if the partnership permits this, then I have no strong objection to it.

Over 4♠, I would pass (forcing). My hearts are nothing to write home about, but partner should have at least 4 hearts, and I have a singleton spade and a fine hand outside of the trump suit, so I am not going to double. I am certainly not going to bid 5♥ on 5 small trump.

Opposite a forcing pass, which should show shortness in their suit, partner has a great hand. He can bid RKCB and sign off in 6♥.

[pclayton]

hrothgar, on Oct 1 2007, 09:01 AM, said:

For example, consider the following 2NT rebid in a 2/1 auction

1♥ - 2♦
2NT

Its quite common that the 2NT bid shows either a minimum stength balanced hand or a very strong hand that is planning to take control of the auction. I don't see any reason why a splinter can't be treated the same way.

The difference is that 4♦ hogs too much space. 2N can be made on a wide variety of hands and there's room for Opener to clarify hand types and strength.

We've discussed splinters before here and their implications. Its possible that responder has a splinter "on the way" to key card, in case opener would like to know about it for evaluating 7. Barring this, the splinter is limited and surrenders captaincy.

[cherdano]

Heh, I thought it was universal that a splinter by an unpassed hand creates a force at any level.

[pclayton]

cherdano, on Oct 1 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

Heh, I thought it was universal that a splinter by an unpassed hand creates a force at any level.

Not to me, although I don't think its unreasonable for a pass to be forcing. OTOH I would certainly take:

1♥ - (pass) - 3♠ - (4♣)

to create a force through 4♥.

[Fluffy]

I think best treatment for a 5♥ call is the same as a jump ro 5♥ IE lack of ♠ control. But having such agreement is a bit crazy.

I didn't see any other hand consistent with that bid untill justin suggested a hand that scares of 4♠ making.

[whereagles]

prefer pass to 5♥.

6♥ is a bit optimistic...