[blackshoe]

cherdano, on Oct 1 2007, 09:34 PM, said:

Then you also consider 1♣=precision 1x 2♦ = natural a reverse?

No, because 1♣ is artificial in Precision. Is Ken's 1♣ opening artificial? I didn't understand it to be so.

[skjaeran]

blackshoe, on Oct 2 2007, 10:14 AM, said:

cherdano, on Oct 1 2007, 09:34 PM, said:

Then you also consider 1♣=precision 1x 2♦ = natural a reverse?

No, because 1♣ is artificial in Precision. Is Ken's 1♣ opening artificial? I didn't understand it to be so.

Sure it's artificial. What else could it be???

[skjaeran]

awm, on Oct 2 2007, 12:35 AM, said:

The other side of the issue is, suppose partner and I play standard american. But we decide to alert our 1♣ opening, just for the heck of it. When opponents ask, we answer:

This is a 4-way bid. It shows one of:

(1) 12-14 hcp balanced without a five-card major, including at least three clubs. If holding exactly three clubs, we will have at most three diamonds. If holding four clubs, we will hold fewer than four diamonds unless the clubs are substantially stronger than the diamonds in which case we could be four-four in the minors.

(2) 18-19 hcp balanced, with the same constaints on shape as above.

(3) 10-22 hcp with five or more clubs and clubs longer than any other suit. It is possible to hold a five-card major if holding six or more clubs. If at the bottom end of the point range, will include six or more clubs. If at the top end of the range, will include four or more cards in a non-club suit.

(4) 11-22 hcp with exactly 4-4-1-4 distribution, or with 4-1-4-4 or 1-4-4-4 distribution with the clubs substantially stronger than the diamonds.


-----------

I'm sure that this explanation is quite accurate, much more complete disclosure than most people offer. But do you think it really helps people understand what the bid means more than saying "it's a standard american 1♣ opening" or just not alerting a bid that didn't require an alert anyway?

Why on earth are you coming up whith this?
And why pester (yoy're not alone) Ken for giving an easy to understand and accurate explanation of his 1♣ opening. This is really ridiulous. I understand that Americans aren't used to anything outside SA, SAYC and 2/1 variations, but there's no reason to behave like this is exotic....or maybe it is in ACBL-land.

[joshs]

This has always been a mess. A few years ago Marc Umeno Visited me in ALbuquerque and we played over the weekend at the regional. In all 3 of my partnerships in Albuquerque, I play a strong club system, but Marc and I do not.

On saturday pairs we sat down against two friends of mine.
Marc Opened 1C (Natural 3+, OR 17-19 balanced without a 5 card major), I alerted, RHO bid 1D without asking, I asked, got to told it was two suits of the same color, I said 1C wasn't strong, you play crash anyway?, and Chaos soon insued.

All I can say is, if a bid gets alerted you really should always ask what it means. If you selectively ask, you are giving partner UI, and if you bid without asking you are not only giving UI, but you could be wrong as to what the bid meant...Everyone should be asking and bidding as if they were behind screens. At least thats the theory...

[jdonn]

joshs, on Oct 2 2007, 06:57 PM, said:

On saturday pairs we sat down against two friends of mine.
Marc Opened 1C (Natural 3+, OR 17-19 balanced without a 5 card major), I alerted, RHO bid 1D without asking, I asked, got to told it was two suits of the same color, I said 1C wasn't strong, you play crash anyway?, and Chaos soon insued.

Didn't you contribute to the problem by offering up that 1♣ wasn't strong when they hadn't asked? Not that it wouldn't have been a mess anyway, but you made your side somewhat liable too and really made the problem even worse, as well as the fact that you only said so based on an assumption. Plus your opponents were likely on the way to some costly misunderstanding.

[Echognome]

joshs, on Oct 2 2007, 03:57 PM, said:

All I can say is, if a bid gets alerted you really should always ask what it means. If you selectively ask, you are giving partner UI, and if you bid without asking you are not only giving UI, but you could be wrong as to what the bid meant...Everyone should be asking and bidding as if they were behind screens. At least thats the theory...

I definitely disagree with this. Suppose I sit down with a new partner and play against some opponents I know very well. In fact, I know their entire system as I've played with them before.

So RHO opens and it's alerted. I know the meaning. In fact, I've discussed beforehand with partner what to bid over their various artificial bids. Yet, clearly, if I ask what it means, then all I'm doing is waking up partner to the fact that my call might not be natural. Seems pretty unethical to me.

Second point is that if I *always* asked, how annoying would that be? We could always sit down and ask about every alert. That might even make it annoying enough that people won't want to play unusual systems against us, because we are that annoying!