[han]

Scoring: MP

1S - (2H) - p - (p)
3C - (3D) - ??

---

Agree with the initial pass? (unfortunately I heard this hand and don't know the heart spots)

What's your plan?

[awm]

I think 4♦ has to show this hand. Only a "penalty pass" could be strong enough to cuebid in this auction (other good hands would find a call over 2♥ normally). The normal bid with a penalty pass is one of double (with diamond cards as well), 3♥ (stopper showing), or 3NT. By bidding 4♦, I must be showing a good club fit and slam interest, and this should imply diamond shortness as well (with weak diamonds would try 3♥ to find out about a control, with good diamonds would probably be penalizing 3♦).

In any case, if partner bids 4♠ over 4♦ I will correct to 5♣. If partner tries 5♣ I will pass. Otherwise I will cooperate with partner's slam try.

[jtfanclub]

Hannie, on Sep 27 2007, 02:06 PM, said:

Agree with the initial pass? (unfortunately I heard this hand and don't know the heart spots)

What's your plan?

I woulda bid 3♣ the first time.

Now I bid 3♥ with the heart ten, or 5♣ without it, I guess. Game seems rather likely.

[kfay]

You have the ♥10 but I really don't see why that matters. Sorry if it's a joke concerning Han's comment about the ♥ spots...

[Walddk]

awm, on Sep 27 2007, 09:11 PM, said:

I think 4♦ has to show this hand. Only a "penalty pass" could be strong enough to cuebid in this auction (other good hands would find a call over 2♥ normally). The normal bid with a penalty pass is one of double (with diamond cards as well), 3♥ (stopper showing), or 3NT. By bidding 4♦, I must be showing a good club fit and slam interest, and this should imply diamond shortness as well (with weak diamonds would try 3♥ to find out about a control, with good diamonds would probably be penalizing 3♦).

I agree that 4♦ shows this hand quite well, but I do not agree with you regarding a double of 3♦. For me that would show that I had a penalty double of 2♥, not necessarily of any other suit bid by the opponents.

Roland

[han]

kfay, on Sep 27 2007, 02:14 PM, said:

You have the ♥10 but I really don't see why that matters. Sorry if it's a joke concerning Han's comment about the ♥ spots...

With the heart 10 the initial pass is even clearer imo, that's why it matters.

[neilkaz]

4♦ now for me, as this really has to be a maximum pass and you now agree ♣ as trumps and flash the SI signal.

I somewhat prefer 3♣ the first time. .. neilkaz..

[awm]

I disagree with Roland, because I don't think partner's 3♣ bid promises any diamonds. In fact it should tend to deny diamonds, as 5-1-3-4 or 5-0-3-5 might double rather than bid 3♣.

It's certainly very possible that this hand is a total misfit and I am sitting behind RHO with both red suits stacked. In this case I want to double (duh) and I want partner to leave it in essentially regardless of partner's hand. If I would also double on something like KT9xx of hearts and one or two small diamonds, and partner leaves it in with the typical 5-2-1-5 or 5-1-2-5 hand, then we will often be defending, doubled, in opponents ten-card fit at the three level, with dummy having plenty of diamonds with which to ruff declarer's heart losers away. This seems less than ideal.

If partner had balanced with a double and the auction proceeded the same way (in which case partner promises some diamonds instead of denying them) then I would agree with Roland that my double can simply be a penalty pass of hearts without any specific diamond holding.

[skjaeran]

I agree with the initial pass holding the ♥T.
Now I bid 4♦. Seems perfect.

[jtfanclub]

Hannie, on Sep 27 2007, 02:20 PM, said:

kfay, on Sep 27 2007, 02:14 PM, said:

You have the ♥10 but I really don't see why that matters.  Sorry if it's a joke concerning Han's comment about the ♥ spots...

With the heart 10 the initial pass is even clearer imo, that's why it matters.

Then I'll pass and bid 3♥. I don't feel good about a penalty pass without the ten. It sounds like 4♦, not 3♥, is the way to show the penalty pass hand? That surprises me.

[kfay]

Han forgot to mention that you're playing a strong club system here.

[keylime]

I'd pass and hope pard can trap.

After pard finds a 3C call, I need to make a probing bid about the heart situation. I table 3♥ here - the issue with 4♦ that I have is, 4♣ maybe our last safe harbor, and....how about maybe playing in 4♥ with the known trump split if by chance, pard is 5-3-1-4 or 5-3-0-5?

What pard does with 3♥ will tell you how to direct the final contract. If pard rebids 3NT, then you know exactly the heart situation and thusly the diamond situation....and, why is LHO being so quiet.....

Keep in mind that if you hear pard show heart tolerance, slam is off. I don't have a slam hand - yet.

[Codo]

I would start with 3♥, showing a control.
After pds 3 NT I bid 4 Club
After pds 3 Spade I bid 4 Diamond
After anything higher, I will decide later.

I agree that 4 Diamond shows club support too, but I don´t see why I should not show my lowest control first.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

The pass over 2H is ok.

Playing standard 4D, playing a strong club
system 5C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

Playing a strong club system I'd just bid 5C now, but otherwise I agree with 4D.

Both 3H and 4D imply a penalty pass of 2H, but as 3H is effectively natural, I think it should show a better suit, and I don't think it particularly shows club support. If you had something like

K
KQ109xx
Axx
Qxx

you would bid 3H because you don't know if you want to play in clubs, spades or NT.

On the actual hand you know you want to play in clubs.

[Fluffy]

I'd bid 3♥, but reading other's posts it sounds wrong now.

[helene_t]

Not sure if I agree with the initial pass, depends on the spots.

Now I would probably bid 6♣ but of course a better player would bid 4♦, and that's also what I would vote for in an MSC poll.

A slight concern is if partner may take 4♦ as a first-round control. I'm less concerned about a heart ruff, that suit is probably 6511 or 6520 with p having the void. If p has a doubleton hearts he will not bid slam anyway.

[awm]

Note that the following hand certainly makes slam okay:

♠AKxxx
♥x
♦Ax
♣Qxxxx

This would be a fairly typical 1♠ opening and 3♣ rebid in a strong club system. It's only 13 high, and the strong club method virtually guarantees that this 3♣ rebid will be 5-5 shape (or more). In fact even this hand is a good slam and it's only nine high:

♠AKxxxx
♥-
♦xx
♣Qxxxx

I don't see the strong club as a good reason to give up on slam here.

[han]

Partner had AKJxx - Jxx Qxxxx I believe, slam making. The actual south jumped to 6C, don't ask me why. I would have bid 4D just like almost everybody.