[MickyB]

Scoring: MP

1N:2♦
2♥:2NT
?

If it makes any difference, over half the field plays weak no-trump, but whether they would open 1C or 1S, and what they would rebid, is unclear.

---

[han]

I'd bid 3H. Maybe partner will kick it in when he hears about the fit, but I'm not going to. Passing 2NT seems too deep.

[rbforster]

A slow 3♥ should show this hand perfectly - mildly invitational with support

[cherdano]

Rob F, on Sep 24 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

A slow 3♥ should show this hand perfectly - mildly invitational with support

I disagree, a fast 3♥ is better. If partner considers bidding 4♥ over 3♥ then he should have a distributional hand, which doesn't make my hand look better.

[han]

Yeah, I didn't think this was a good 3H.

[Codo]

ups:♥ KQx ♦ Kx ♣ KQJx
downs: ♠ Qxxx no aces, no tens

4 Heart.

I have so few aces maybe pd has two. I can visulisze much more hands where 4 Heart makes then where 4 Heart fails with normal 9 HCP hands with 5332 from pd. And I hate to play 3 ♥ + 1, even at mps.

[Edmunte1]

I think this is a 5 sided coin, my bid would be 3♣. If this option is not available, i'll bid 4♥

[Free]

3NT

[ArcLight]

Isn't 3♥ game forcing? Bidding on after an invitation is accepting it, and pard won't pass will he?


Edit:
OK - I understand,

In the sequence given above Responder described his hand, and opener placed the contract. Opener's 3H is a signoff.


this is forcing:
1H-1S
2C-3C (invitational)
3S ...




Thanks for clarifying this for me.

[drinbrasil]

MickyB, on Sep 25 2007, 12:40 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

1N:2♦
2♥:2NT
?

If it makes any difference, over half the field plays weak no-trump, but whether they would open 1C or 1S, and what they would rebid, is unclear.

---

you play wich range NT? I think this is first question.
If 15-17, you have 16 without aces, a minus, so hand more to minimum, you can bid 3H (of course NF, just correcting). Even partner with 2 aces you can go down fast. IN a good day 4h is clear making, but i need have confidence my partner judges he has invite hand only. (so with 2 aces he has 5-3-3-2 or something bad like this).

[keylime]

Surely pard has some of my aces here for a game bid. Problem is, he could also have AKJ tight of spades and out, too. So, 3♥, middle of the road - passing 2NT is so unmanly, and unreasonable with K-x of diamonds.

[cherdano]

ArcLight, on Sep 25 2007, 06:53 AM, said:

Isn't 3♥ game forcing? Bidding on after an invitation is accepting it, and pard won't pass will he?

No, 3♥ is how you reject the invite with 3 hearts.

[bid_em_up]

ArcLight, on Sep 25 2007, 07:53 AM, said:

Isn't 3♥ game forcing?  Bidding on after an invitation is accepting it, and pard won't pass will he?

Why would it be game forcing? Both hands have limited themselves, haven't they? Two limited hands cannot then create a g/f sequence, imo.

You are just clueing partner in that you really have heart support and are minimum. He may have a hand that can bid 4H, if he is aware you have support.

If you were max, you would have already accepted the invitation via 3N (balanced) or 4H (max with support). So 3H cannot be g/f.

[ArtK78]

First of all, since the question was asked, 3♥ is to play. Partner announced an invitational hand with 5 hearts. 3♥ says the opener is declining the invitation but that the hand belongs in hearts, not no trump.

Second of all, if you check out in 3♥ and partner bids again, you had better have some extra time available at the end of the session, because you are going to wind up before a committee. Responder does not have the option of bidding on over 3♥ unless 2NT was something other than a standard invitational call by agreement.

Finally, I thing that opener's hand is a clear 4♥ call. Great hearts, controls and a source of tricks in the minors. A fourth heart would be nice, but we can't have everything. I am not going to say that 4♥ will make all of the time on these cards, but it will be cold a good percentage of the time and it will make a lot of the times when it isn't cold (even some of the times when the opponents can beat it).

[bid_em_up]

ArtK78, on Sep 25 2007, 09:29 AM, said:

Second of all, if you check out in 3♥ and partner bids again, you had better have some extra time available at the end of the session, because you are going to wind up before a committee. Responder does not have the option of bidding on over 3♥ unless 2NT was something other than a standard invitational call by agreement.

This is absolute nonsense.

[mikeh]

ArtK78, on Sep 25 2007, 09:29 AM, said:

Second of all, if you check out in 3♥ and partner bids again, you had better have some extra time available at the end of the session, because you are going to wind up before a committee.  Responder does not have the option of bidding on over 3♥ unless 2NT was something other than a standard invitational call by agreement.

while i wouldn't go so far as to call this 'absolute nonsence', it is wrong. There will be some hands on which responder will and should upgrade once he hears of 3 card support: a hand that is worth only an invite when partner may have only 2 hearts can become worth a game opposite 3. The occasions on which this arise are few but not none. Any competent committee should be able to recognize this, even leaving aside the question of just how does a slow 3♥ call show extras? Perhaps opener was considering playing 2N on his minimum.... so pulling slowly to 3♥ carries no suggestion of extra values to me.

[bid_em_up]

I called it absolute nonsense, because if you actually think you can go to committee every time your opponents make what you think is a "bad" bid, you will soon be broke from AWM fines.

Somewhere, in the thread, it was (jokingly, I hope) stated to bid 3H slow or fast, but it was not suggested in the original post. I inferred that all calls were/are actually made in tempo. Art's statement made no reference to the 3H call being made slowly, I assume he means that an in-tempo 3H call would still result in a committee assuming responder now took another call.

And that, is nonsense, imo. For both the reasons you state (there are hands that can bid on over 3H), and you can't take bad bidding to committee.

[Fluffy]

mikeh, on Sep 25 2007, 02:37 PM, said:

Any competent committee .....

reminds me of the militar inteligence joke

[SoTired]

3H.

any 8-9 hcp hand with a singleton would raise 3H to 4H.

That is one reason why passing 2N is attactive because you don't want to encourage partner to bid on.

Of course, with my luck and i pass, partner will have a signleton diam so that 2N gets killed because I have to knockout 3 aces, while 4H rolls home losing to just the 3 outstanding aces.

So, finally, I fall back on basic bidding: With a min and 2h, you pass. With a min and 3+h, you bid 3H...

[ArtK78]

I do not know the experience levels of the other posters.

To me, the 3♥ rebid by the opening 1NT bidder is an absolute signoff. 2NT says that responder has an invitational hand with 5 hearts. Opener has two obligations:

1) Bid game with a hand worthy of a game bid - either in hearts or notrump.
2) Pass or 3♥ otherwise, depending on how many hearts opener holds.

I have been playing for over 30 years at all levels up to North American Championships, and I have served on many committees. If this auction occurred and there was a complaint about it, and it came before a committee on which I was serving, I would have to be 100% convinced that there was no action at the table outside of the bidding which could have caused the game bid.

The responder is entitled to do whatever he likes. But the 4♥ bid over a preference to 3♥ by opener is a breach of partnership discipline. It is not systemic, it is not expected. If there is ANY indication of anything occurring at the table which could have influenced the 4♥ bid by responder, it will be thrown out.

I find it amazing that so many posters seem to think that 4♥ by responder over opener's preference to 3♥ is an option.