[Gerben42]

In last weekend's German open pairs championship I played a version of the Fantunes system. We only had one bad result (2♦ p p p with terrible break and a better fit available) from the 2-bids, whereas we had about 3 or 4 really good ones.

What surprised me more than anything is that unlike in the clubs I played in, people from other parts of the country played "cheapest unbid suit is TO, dbl is penalty" versus some preemptive bids.

The second surprise was that 9 - 12 was apparently strong enough to confuse some opponents about if it was weak or strong. It is not the goal of the system to catch opponents without agreements but apparently it happened.

Auction

(2♠: 9 - 12, 5+♠) 3♣ (alerted and explained as: If my partner thinks your 2♠ is weak it's TO of ♠, but might be natural...)

Anyway a normal contract was reached in a funny way now.

I've had similar experiences with 14 - 16 NT, the whole point of it is that people cannot be bothered when looking at the conv. card (which almost all of them do in this championship) to ask partner before play start and say "we treat this as strong / weak / whatever".

[helene_t]

As for intermediate NT, I think it's strange. Pairs who are perfectionist enough to play different defences against weak and strong NT would normally define those concepts and/or look at your CC.

As for Fantunes I can sorta understand, intermediate 2-openings are not that common.

[awm]

Sam and I pre-alert our "good 13 to 16" notrump opening for exactly this reason (it's technically not a pre-alert, but we don't want to catch opponents w/o agreements as to what their calls mean). Nonetheless, we recently had a hand in a national tournament where opponents didn't know if they were treating our notrump as weak or strong! Some people just won't discuss no matter how much warning you give them.

[hrothgar]

Gerben42, on Sep 24 2007, 12:11 PM, said:

In last weekend's German open pairs championship I played a version of the Fantunes system. We only had one bad result (2♦ p p p with terrible break and a better fit available) from the 2-bids, whereas we had about 3 or 4 really good ones.

What surprised me more than anything is that unlike in the clubs I played in, people from other parts of the country played "cheapest unbid suit is TO, dbl is penalty" versus some preemptive bids.

As I recall, that defense is referred to as Fishbein...

Its been years since I've heard of anyone actually using it. In general, when I've heard this convention discussed, it was always in pretty disparging terms.

Maybe preempts have gotten crappy enough that Fishbein is once more cutting edge?

[cherdano]

hrothgar, on Sep 24 2007, 10:34 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Sep 24 2007, 12:11 PM, said:

In last weekend's German open pairs championship I played a version of the Fantunes system. We only had one bad result (2♦ p p p with terrible break and a better fit available) from the 2-bids, whereas we had about 3 or 4 really good ones.

What surprised me more than anything is that unlike in the clubs I played in, people from other parts of the country played "cheapest unbid suit is TO, dbl is penalty" versus some preemptive bids.

As I recall, that defense is referred to as Fishbein...

Its been years since I've heard of anyone actually using it. In general, when I've heard this convention discussed, it was always in pretty disparging terms.

Maybe preempts have gotten crappy enough that Fishbein is once more cutting edge?

Please don't make any conclusions from system choices of participants at the German open championships

P.S.: In Germany, playing Fishbein has the added advantage that you don't need to alert the double (you are not allowed to, in fact).

[skjaeran]

Hmmm, has really the old Fishbein convention resurfaced in Germany, or didn't it die out 25+ years ago there?

[TimG]

hrothgar, on Sep 24 2007, 11:34 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Sep 24 2007, 12:11 PM, said:

In last weekend's German open pairs championship I played a version of the Fantunes system. We only had one bad result (2♦ p p p with terrible break and a better fit available) from the 2-bids, whereas we had about 3 or 4 really good ones.

What surprised me more than anything is that unlike in the clubs I played in, people from other parts of the country played "cheapest unbid suit is TO, dbl is penalty" versus some preemptive bids.

As I recall, that defense is referred to as Fishbein...

Its been years since I've heard of anyone actually using it. In general, when I've heard this convention discussed, it was always in pretty disparging terms.

Maybe preempts have gotten crappy enough that Fishbein is once more cutting edge?

I've played it from time to time. It may not be best, but seeing the expression on an opponent's face when you alert and explain that it is a penalty double is worth the possible sacrifice in theoretical value.

[pclayton]

Fishbein LOL. I think the only reason people even talk about it is because it was one of the most dreaded conventions played.

Weiss is another defense to Weak 2's and it made more sense. A double was cooperative (akin to a power double) and tended to show a balanced hand. 2N become a takeout. This is something I played in the 80's, but these agreements are less effective against sound weak 2's.

[jdonn]

The few times my opponents have been playing fishbein, which has only happened online, it makes me want to preempt far more often and wildly, not less often. They still rarely hold a penalty double and the methods put them at such a disadvantage that I think it's well worth it.

[han]

cherdano, on Sep 24 2007, 12:16 PM, said:

Please don't make any conclusions from system choices of participants at the German open championships

Multiple open German champion speaking?

[matmat]

why are people amazed that the general populous has no defensive agreements against fairly rare methods?

[Gerben42]

Because the bids under discussion are natural?

I would not surprised if a random pair has no defense against 2♥ both majors weak, which is a tough convention to defend against.

[Free]

TimG, on Sep 24 2007, 09:13 PM, said:

I've played it from time to time. It may not be best, but seeing the expression on an opponent's face when you alert and explain that it is a penalty double is worth the possible sacrifice in theoretical value.

If you want to see some funny expressions on your opponents' faces, play reversed Fishbein!

[keylime]

This sounds rather fishy....

[Gerben42]

I like it.

(2♠) 3♣ alert!

What's that?

He wants to play 2♠x.

Ahh...