[sathyab]

Not sure if the word "re-compete" exists, but it'd be useful if it did.

Playing in a decent but not terribly strong field, dealer on your right opens 1c. Red/white, you hold A2 AKJ5 KJT84 54 and the bidding proceeds,

(1c)-1d-(2c)-p-(p)-2h-(3c)-p-(p).

Is it obvious to pass now ? If the vulneraibility were reversed, would it make a difference ? Would a double now tend to deny 3=4=5=1 shape as you didn't double on the previous round ?

[han]

Yes, I think it is obvious to pass now. We have shown a good hand with 5+ diamonds and 4 hearts, that's what we have. Acting again would be an insult to partner.

With 3-4-5-1 I would typically double the first time around.

[pclayton]

I really can't see acting again. I potentially pushed our side to the 3 level with 2♥ so I've shown a good hand. Pard probably has a few spades, but not enough strength to bid. A 6322 seems likely and about a 2-5 count.

[keylime]

I'm passing too. I've gotten them to the three level and pard's rather quiet over there.

I'm thinking about what to lead versus a bid here.

[jtfanclub]

I play an X here as 100% penalty. In fact, it's more like 125% penalty, as it implies that either my diamond or my heart bid was horsing around and hoping that they would go one level higher so I could swing the axe. RHO might not have much in clubs (3 or even 2 cards in the suit), and LHO might not have much in points. That means I could have a very big hand.

I might have a hand like:

x Axx KJTx AQJT9 as a minimum. I could be stronger.

Does anybody else play it that way?

[han]

jtfanclub, on Sep 18 2007, 02:22 PM, said:

I might have a hand like:

x Axx KJTx AQJT9 as a minimum. I could be stronger.

Does anybody else play it that way?

I hope not.

[jtfanclub]

Hannie, on Sep 18 2007, 02:59 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Sep 18 2007, 02:22 PM, said:

Does anybody else play it that way?

I hope not.

I have a lot of trouble bidding those hands, a 1-3-4-5 hand with 5 cards in opponent's minor. Doubling is...dangerous. There is no natural bid available for a strong hand with the opponent's minor in SAYC. Passing is fun, but often makes it even worse if you have a very strong hand.

So, in a case like this, I like an X after calling (or Xing) TWICE to be penalty.

How do you bid those hands?

[skjaeran]

jtfanclub, on Sep 18 2007, 11:00 PM, said:

Hannie, on Sep 18 2007, 02:59 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Sep 18 2007, 02:22 PM, said:

Does anybody else play it that way?

I hope not.

I have a lot of trouble bidding those hands, a 1-3-4-5 hand with 5 cards in opponent's minor. Doubling is...dangerous. There is no natural bid available for a strong hand with the opponent's minor in SAYC. Passing is fun, but often makes it even worse if you have a very strong hand.

So, in a case like this, I like an X after calling (or Xing) TWICE to be penalty.

How do you bid those hands?

You either pass or overcall a natural 2♣ if your suit is strong enough.
Alternatively you overcall 1♦ and rebid a natural 2♣.

[jtfanclub]

skaeran, on Sep 18 2007, 04:49 PM, said:

You either pass or overcall a natural 2♣ if your suit is strong enough.
Alternatively you overcall 1♦ and rebid a natural 2♣.

Unfortunately, they frown on TWO clubs being Michaels and two CLUBS being natural. Most people playing SA and 2/1 use 2 clubs as Michaels. Why, I don't know. Something about the bidding going to the 5 level before you get to bid your other major, or something.

Well, sure, you could overcall 1♦ planning to rebid a natural 2♣, or perhaps X a 2♠ call. Unfortunatley, on this auction it isn't possible. So, it goes... 1♣ by RHO, 1♦ by you, 2♣ by LHO, and two passes back to you. Now what?

I don't like passing shapely 15 counts just because the opponents opened a 2 card suit where my length is. I like it even less for 18 counts.

[mike777]

sathyab, on Sep 18 2007, 01:55 PM, said:

Not sure if the word "re-compete" exists, but it'd be useful if it did.

Playing in a decent but not terribly strong field, dealer on your right opens 1c. Red/white, you hold A2 AKJ5 KJT84 54 and the bidding proceeds,

(1c)-1d-(2c)-p-(p)-2h-(3c)-p-(p).

Is it obvious to pass now ? If the vulneraibility were reversed, would it make a difference ? Would a double now tend to deny 3=4=5=1 shape as you didn't double on the previous round ?

another pitch for astro cuebids.
in this case
(1c)=2c shows 4 hearts and longer D.

[sathyab]

Hannie, on Sep 18 2007, 02:00 PM, said:

Yes, I think it is obvious to pass now. We have shown a good hand with 5+ diamonds and 4 hearts, that's what we have. Acting again would be an insult to partner.

With 3-4-5-1 I would typically double the first time around.

How good a hand do you need, to compete over 2c ? In an auction where only minors have been mentioned and it comes back to you at the 2-level, it's practically forcing at MP. I wouldn't pass if my Ace of spades were replaced by the decuce for instance.

Having said that, I am not suggesting that I'd bid again with this hand just because I could have made the same bid with a weaker hand. I realize you can't have a bid for every additional Ace. But may be the auction wouldn't have come back to you at the two level, if you were an Ace short. May be someone else at the table would find a bid over 2c.

It looks as though your LHO has a 'tweener, not quite weak enough to bid 3c the first time, but not strong enough for an action like say double over 2h showing cards perhaps ? Given that what should your partner expect if you did double 3c ?

[jtfanclub]

mike777, on Sep 18 2007, 05:21 PM, said:

another pitch for astro cuebids.
in this case
(1c)=2c shows 4 hearts and longer D.

I don't think it makes any difference on this auction, since they were polite enough to let you bid both suits anyways.

(1c)=2c!=(3c)=P=(P). ! is Astro, Same problem, yes?

[mike777]

jtfanclub, on Sep 18 2007, 05:39 PM, said:

mike777, on Sep 18 2007, 05:21 PM, said:

another pitch for astro cuebids.
in this case
(1c)=2c shows 4 hearts and longer D.

I don't think it makes any difference on this auction, since they were polite enough to let you bid both suits anyways.

(1c)=2c!=(3c)=P=(P). ! is Astro, Same problem, yes?

No, slightly different, since now LHO has bid 3 clubs not 2clubs showing more clubs I presume. It is possible LHO may be forced to pass over our 2c bid.

[han]

sathyab, on Sep 18 2007, 05:39 PM, said:

How good a hand do you need, to compete over 2c ? In an auction where only minors have been mentioned and it comes back to you at the 2-level, it's practically forcing at MP.

I disagree with the whole idea. If I have a minimal overcall and 2C comes back to me I pass. The advantage is that partner knows I have something when I take another call, especially when I reverse like here.

Quote

Given that what should your partner expect if you did double 3c ?

Extra values.

[sathyab]

Hannie, on Sep 18 2007, 08:19 PM, said:

sathyab, on Sep 18 2007, 05:39 PM, said:

How good a hand do you need, to compete over 2c ? In an auction where only minors have been mentioned and it comes back to you at the 2-level, it's practically forcing at MP.

I disagree with the whole idea. If I have a minimal overcall and 2C comes back to me I pass. The advantage is that partner knows I have something when I take another call, especially when I reverse like here.

Quote

Given that what should your partner expect if you did double 3c ?

Extra values.

What is a minimal overcall if you did have to balance over 2c ? Most people play that a simple overcall is limited to about 17, so the overcall can be slightly stronger than this hand, but not a lot stronger.

You had expressed your opinion quite firmly the first time around. I posted again hoping to elicit the opinon of others. May be you should follow your advice about bidding when it comes to posting too. If you have already bid your values, pass. If you have nothing more to add to your previous post, pass.

[han]

sathyab, on Sep 19 2007, 12:42 AM, said:

You had expressed your opinion quite firmly the first time around. I posted again hoping to elicit the opinon of others. May be you should follow your advice about bidding when it comes to posting too. If you have already bid your values, pass. If you have nothing more to add to your previous post, pass.

???

You quoted my post and asked a question and now you tell me I shouldn't have answered!

I've made a few rude posts lately but not to you and not in this thread. Here I've given you a straight bridge opinion so I am not sure why you react like this.

[cherdano]

sathyab, on Sep 18 2007, 11:42 PM, said:

Hannie, on Sep 18 2007, 08:19 PM, said:

sathyab, on Sep 18 2007, 05:39 PM, said:

How good a hand do you need, to compete over 2c ? In an auction where only minors have been mentioned and it comes back to you at the 2-level, it's practically forcing at MP.

I disagree with the whole idea. If I have a minimal overcall and 2C comes back to me I pass. The advantage is that partner knows I have something when I take another call, especially when I reverse like here.

Quote

Given that what should your partner expect if you did double 3c ?

Extra values.

What is a minimal overcall if you did have to balance over 2c ? Most people play that a simple overcall is limited to about 17, so the overcall can be slightly stronger than this hand, but not a lot stronger.

You had expressed your opinion quite firmly the first time around. I posted again hoping to elicit the opinon of others. May be you should follow your advice about bidding when it comes to posting too. If you have already bid your values, pass. If you have nothing more to add to your previous post, pass.

What are the extra values in this post?

Anyway, I have nothing to add, hannie has already bid my values. (I.e. what he said is pretty standard stuff, I don't think you will get any differing opinions from experts around here.)

[Codo]

Of course I agree with Han too.

1. I won´t reopen with: 32 AKJ5 KJT84 54.
If we have about half of the deck, Pd will have about 8 hcps. But he has no fit, else he had raised. He does not have both majors, else he had doubled. He has no extra strength and good clubs, else he had bid 2 NT. So the chance to win with a reopening are remote.

2. As I had reopen with a better hand, I join the chorus and pass now. I really have already shown my hand.

3.I don´t know what a double here should be.

[jchiu]

sathyab, on Sep 19 2007, 05:42 AM, said:

You had expressed your opinion quite firmly the first time around. I posted again hoping to elicit the opinon of others. May be you should follow your advice about bidding when it comes to posting too. If you have already bid your values, pass. If you have nothing more to add to your previous post, pass.

Quite ironic isn't it?