[Fluffy]

Jlall, on Sep 18 2007, 08:41 PM, said:

Game force it. I feel really strongly that all close calls in a 2/1 system should just game force. The system strength is when you are in a GF. The system weakness is when you have about inv values and have to go through 1N. This leads me to believe close calls should just go through the GF, even if it's not QUITE worth it. Just as an example it will be very tough to bid slams accurately if you start with 1N, and it will be very hard to find 5-3 heart fits when you belong in 4H.

This is the everyday's history, If you bid undisciplined 2/1 you also lose some of the advantages of being in GF since your range becomes too wide and inaccurate.

I don't care about losing a 5-3 heart fit when the 5 card suit is poor, we could make 3NT running only spade tricks and minor tops. 1NT for me.

[ArtK78]

Playing 2/1 GF, this is obviously a very close call. However, if you play BART, you are better placed after a 1NT response as you have a method to uncover a 5 card heart suit with just under game forcing values.

With my regular partner I play BART and I play that 1♠-2♥ is not game forcing. So, this hand is an easy 2♥ call. BART is reserved for hands of slightly less strength with hearts or some other awkward game-invitational hands.

[mikeh]

The hand in question is nowhere near as strong as, for example, x AJ10xx Kxxx Axx.

I would not gf with this. 1N. Then, over 2 anything (other than 2♥), I bid 2N.

We may still back into a 5-3 heart fit if he rebids 2minor, since with all 5341 or 5314 hands and accepting values, he will bid 3♥ along the way. We will miss the heart fit when he is 5332 or 5323... and, usually, when he has a 6 card spade suit.

This is a very close call, but the stiff A, even in partner's suit, is not pulling full weight, and the 5 card suit is weak... these are both warnings to downgrade, and I would ignore one, with this hand, but not two.

[FrancesHinden]

1NT for me. Not enough to game force opposite the stuff my partner opens.
(but I'm happy I play some system by opener after this)

[mikeh]

Jlall, on Sep 19 2007, 02:26 PM, said:

mikeh, on Sep 19 2007, 10:30 AM, said:

We may still back into a 5-3 heart fit if he rebids 2minor, since with all 5341 or 5314 hands and accepting values, he will bid 3♥ along the way.

It's the "with accepting values part" that worries me. If partner has a 53(41) 11 or 12 count I'd rather play 4H than 2N.

Agreed. When I bid 1N, I understand I may miss the best contract. But bidding 2♥ carries the same risk, from the opposite perspective. Opening bid styles matter here, to some degree. I suspect that we all post here assuming that partner uses our own style (or that of a regular partner). I, and my regular partners, tend to open slightly on the aggressive side of neutral, when it comes to 1♠. Also, we tend to accept invites quite aggressively. If you are a more conservative opener, or if your partnerships tend to invite light and accept heavy, then I'd agree with 2♥. It is very close, and I don't think this is one of those scenarios where knowing the actual hand will prove anything

[Edmunte1]

At the table i would definitely bid 2♥. Considering we're playing in a IMP's tournament i think that over 70% of the field will be in game. That means:
a) If games makes the average score will be:
for 3nt: 400*.7+150*.3=325 meaning 5 IMP's loss for not being in game, 2 IMP's win for bidding the game
for 4M: 420.*7+170*.3=345 meaning 5 IMP's loss for not being in game, 2 IMP's win for bidding the game
b ) If game goes down the average score will be:
for 3NT: -50*.7+120*.3=0, 2 IMP's loss for being in game, 3 IMP's win for staying in 2NT
If we add to this the probability that sometimes 4♥ makes and we will be in 2NT, and that sometimes when we go down in 3NT we will go also down in 2NT, 2♥ seems clearly a better choice, even if maybe this isn't the 'technical' bid.
In a team match, the problem will be different.