[jillybean]

Dealer: South Vul: All Scoring: IMP

♠ KJ97 ♥ Q ♦ 83 ♣ AK8742

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♣
 1NT   2♥    Pass  3♣
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Comments please

[hrothgar]

Partner's 2♥ bid showed a long heart suit and few values

1. Stiff Queen is a nice card opposite partner's expected 6 card suit
2. 3♣ pushes you to the three level
3. The 1NT bidder would appear to have a club stopper, meaning that you probably have a trump loser. Given that the stopper is probably Qxx or some such, this leaves less clubs available for partner's hand
4. Majors score better than minors

You might be able to guess that I favor a pass rather than bidding 3♣

[jillybean]

hrothgar, on Sep 17 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

You might be able to guess that I favor a pass rather than bidding 3♣

Yep I have a hard time passing with a stiff in p's suit

Why is the Q a good card in p's suit?

[cherdano]

jillybean2, on Sep 17 2007, 11:51 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Sep 17 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

You might be able to guess that I favor a pass rather than bidding 3♣

Yep I have a hard time passing with a stiff in p's suit

Why is the Q a good card in p's suit?

Let's say partner only has a 5-card suit. Then he probably has a good one. He could have AKJxx, AKT9x, KJTxx. Look at how many trump losers partner probably has, and then compare with how many he would likely have if you have ♥xx.

[ralph23]

I would pass 2♥.

North's 2♥ shows a long suit and not a good hand. South only has one ♥ but it's a pretty good one that will either take or help establish a trick.

3♣ takes us a level higher, and I don't care for that at all.

Partner's hearts may be useless in a club contract; South's AK of clubs will be good in a heart contract. All signs seem to militate toward passing.

[Fluffy]

I am not in good condition/mood today, sorry Jilly, but I think 3♣ is insane.

The kind of bid that would make me wonder why am I losing my time playing with a player who wants to play all boards.

About why, Richard and Ralph already said good points, they only failed to picture a weak 7 card suit.

[FrancesHinden]

Partner's 2♥ bid shows a desire to play in 2♥ opposite a normal opening bid. That's what you have, so pass.

If you had the same hand but the ♥Q were the ♦Q (so you were 4-0-3-6) it still looks like a pass. Only with something like Axxx - Qxx KQJ109x do you have a 3C bid.

The only ther time you might bid is with a major heart fit, but that's not very likely once RHO passes over 2H

[jtfanclub]

So how much stronger would y'all have to be before you said 2♠?

For me, it isn't much....

[mikeh]

jtfanclub, on Sep 17 2007, 02:57 PM, said:

So how much stronger would y'all have to be before you said 2♠?

For me, it isn't much....

for me, it would have to be a huge amount.

We have to have an understanding of what 2♥ shows.

1stly, it DENIES a good hand. I would be surprised if partner holds a decent 9 count. Good hands start with double (maybe not if a real freak: an in-context monster 2-suiter, for example, would bid 2N and a one suiter would either double or bid higher than 2)

And partner may be a lot weaker than 8. I would bid 2♥ on xx KJ10xxxx xxx x without any second thought.

I have a very difficult time actually coming up with a hand on which LHO bids a strong 1N and I want to bid 2♠... inviting (and often getting) a 3-level call from partner. I'm not saying it is impossible, but it would be an unusual hand. Probably 5=0=2=6 or the like.

[jillybean]

Fluffy, on Sep 17 2007, 11:23 AM, said:

I am not in good condition/mood today, sorry Jilly, but I think 3♣ is insane.

np I wondered about my sanity, hence the post
Hope you feel better soon.

[bid_em_up]

jillybean2, on Sep 17 2007, 12:51 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Sep 17 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

You might be able to guess that I favor a pass rather than bidding 3♣

Yep I have a hard time passing with a stiff in p's suit

Why is the Q a good card in p's suit?

Because 2H is non-forcing. You are not required to bid simply because you have a stiff heart.

Because it is one more card in his suit than he may have in yours.

Because it is an honor card helping to solidify his suit.

Your suit: AK8742, partner has a void, stiff or small doubleton. The NT overcaller may well have QJxx in clubs. Partners club holding is unlikely to solidify your suit at all. You have at least 1 and quite likely 2 club losers, regardless of how many clubs partner holds.

Partners suit: AJ10xxx, or KJ10xxx you - stiff Q, likely one loser in his suit.

If partner has a stiff club, at least he might be able to take at least one pitch on the clubs.

Partners hand may take ZERO tricks in clubs, but several in hearts. IOW, his hand may be totally useless to you in a club contract (he will have very little except long hearts and minimum values), but your hand will likely produce at least 3-4 tricks for him in a heart contract.

The 2H bid in this scenario is the equivalent of a 2H/3H opening bid, preemptive with hearts. With values and a suit of his own, partner will usually double 1N. If partner had opened 2H in 1st seat, followed by pass to you, would you now bid 3C with your hand? No, you would pass 2H. This is the same principle.

[han]

Agree with Fluffy. If you know what 2H means then you cannot bid 3C.

[skjaeran]

Agree with what all have said so far. Pass over 2♥ should be rather obvious. Frances, Mike and bid_em_up made good comments to why and what you need to take another bid.

[jillybean]

Ok,

1♣ (1nt) 2x is weak, suggesting to play in that suit.

1♣ (1nt) 3x is forcing (to game unless opener rebids suit?)

1♣ (1nt) X is take out

(1nt) X is penalty

(p) (1nt) X is penalty

Is this standard or do these doubles over 1nt depend on p/ship agreements?

[cherdano]

jillybean2, on Sep 18 2007, 06:31 PM, said:

1♣ (1nt) X is take out

(1nt) X is penalty

(p) (1nt) X is penalty

Is this standard or do these doubles over 1nt depend on p/ship agreements?

Noooo, 1♣ (1N) X is the clearest penalty double in existence on this planet. Really everyone plays that. (1N) X and P (1N) X depend on partnership agreement, some artificial double is more common than a penalty double over a strong 1N though.

[han]

Yes, that's penalty, and most play 1C - (1NT) - 3X as preemptive, not as forcing.

[jillybean]

I give up!

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on Sep 18 2007, 09:23 PM, said:

I give up!

I know, it's unbelievably bad, isn't it?

Let's say you have:

A8xx
AKTxx
x
Jxx

Partner opens 1 club first seat, next player says 1NT.

Now what?

You can double for penalty, knowing that they probably have 5 diamond tricks, and pray that somebody pulls. You can bid 2 hearts, nonforcing, and hope that partner has extras. You can bid 2NT, forcing, but that shows a two suiter, which in your case you don't have. And 3 hearts is right out.

What are you supposed to say, exactly?

I feel confident that the forum consensus would be to double, and that your original hand should leave it in. The good news is, you might set it a trick. The bad news is, you just missed 4 spades.

Oh well, next deal.

[han]

That hand really isn't a problem hand, it is a very clear penalty double. There really is no reason to think that they have 5 diamond tricks, it is possible but far from certain.

No call will work every time, but you just have to make the best call with the information you have. There double is clear. Sometimes you will set it 1 trick while you have game, but other times you won't have game and perhaps set it 3 or 4 tricks (no, that is not wishful thinking any more than 5 diamond tricks is overly pessimistic).

[jdonn]

My opponents seem to run even when they are balanced (the partner of the 1NT overcaller) so I'm sorry for you if yours just sit it out with 10 diamonds. I can't even remember a bad result from making a penalty double of a 1NT overcaller that got sat out.