[han]

Suppose the auction starts as follows:

(2S) - 4C - (p) - 4H
(p) - ??

2S was weak and 4C was leaping michaels.

What should the following bids mean:

4S
4NT
5C
5D
5H

I'm more interest in what the best meaning in a serious partnership is rather than what you would take them as in a pcik-up partnership.

[Fluffy]

you can improve, but having agreements for every sequence is a bad idea.
My general rules

4S Cue
4NT Blackwood
5C freak hand, nat
5D tell me if you have a black ace (or club king) now.
5H 2/3 small spades

alternative it could make sense to play 5♥ as general slam try and 5♦ as lack of spade control.

[Gerben42]

4♠, 5♦ Voidwood (5 KC)
4NT Blackwood (6 KC)

5♣: 7 - 5 without side suit losers (void and singleton Ace), asks partner to raise 1 level for each key card.

5♥ Asks for ♠ control

[han]

I am not convinced that either of these methods is best (of course, neither of you have tried to convince me).

The other day I had - AKJxx Axx AKQJx. I think I am worth another call over 4H but with Gerben's suggestions I am completely stuck. With Fluffy's method I can cue 4S but it is not clear that that will lead to anything useful (for example, partner won't know that QJ of diamonds is useful).

I was thinking about the following structure:

4S = cuebid, asks partner to cuebid if possible.
4NT = RKC.
5C = natural, forward going but NF.
5D = naturalish slam try, help needed in diamonds.
5H = missing a spade control.

With the hand above we could bid 5D, and partner would know that QJx of diamonds is useful. Hey, 6D might be the best spot and we might still get there.

I agree with Fluffy that it doesn't make sense to define the bids for the exact auction, but these definitions are consistent with my general style and apply in similar auctions too.

Consider for example the auction

2C - 2D (GF)
2H - 2S (forced, Kokish)
3S - 4H
??

Opener has shown a strong hand with hearts and spades, responder has some values but not much/ I would play:

4S = 5-6 in the majors, forcing.
4NT = RKC (maybe it doesn't make sense here)
5C/5D = naturalish slam try, help appreciated here.
5H = slam try, cards in hearts and spades are useful as well as side aces. The rest is probably not.

[han]

Actually, in Gerben's method I can bid 4S (exclusion) and then bid 5D, presumably showing that I am still interested in slam even though partner has no aces. Partner will at least know that have a spade void.

This is quite different from how blackwood is usually used though.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi Han,

I think, that one should take it, that hearts is the
defined trump suit.
You can still play a slam in clubs via bidding 6C
later on, which partner may or may not correct to
6H.

Additionally I think it would be a good idea, to be
able to show a shortage in spades / diamonds.
Either define the 4S cue as a splinter, or define the
bid as an undisclosed void.
Depending on the meaning of 4S, the meaning of 5D
follows.

Someone mentioned a Kokish rule, if you showed +9
cards in two suits, bidding a 3rd suit shows shortage,
I would use this rule here as well.
It minimizes the memory load.

4NT would be RKCB.

I am not sure, what the natural meaning of 5C / 5H is.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[joshs]

Hannie, on Sep 17 2007, 12:24 AM, said:

Suppose the auction starts as follows:

(2S) - 4C - (p) - 4H
(p) - ??

2S was weak and 4C was leaping michaels.

What should the following bids mean:

4S
4NT
5C
5D
5H

I'm more interest in what the best meaning in a serious partnership is rather than what you would take them as in a pcik-up partnership.

4S (Q bid, unless playing kickback, then keycard)
4N (keycard, unless playing kickback, then Qbid)
5C Natural Slam try, usually 5=7
5D well it sounds like he has 2 spades losers, but everything else in the deck
5H I am trying to work this one out....

In my partner ship rules with John, when trumps are firmly established:
Qbids are co-operate, and the raise is a demand bid. I am trying to decide if that makes sense here:

This would imply:
5H I got the entrie deck but have 2 spade losers
5D No spade control AND need some other help. In otherwise, I am risking going down.

Since, risking going down sounds like bad strategy, I don't very much like this.

Maybe more to the point:
5D as the demand bid
5H as I have first or second round in spades, 1'st in diamonds, extras, but still need some help in my suits (after all partner might have 2 small hearts in this auction). Perhaps x AKJxxx A AQJxx

I guess with john I would just Q bid spades with this hand and then diamonds and let partner decide what to do, although the 5D call is pretty unlikely. OK, any of these methods will work....

[joshs]

Hannie, on Sep 17 2007, 10:18 AM, said:

I am not convinced that either of these methods is best (of course, neither of you have tried to convince me).

The other day I had - AKJxx Axx AKQJx. I think I am worth another call over 4H but with Gerben's suggestions I am completely stuck. With Fluffy's method I can cue 4S but it is not clear that that will lead to anything useful (for example, partner won't know that QJ of diamonds is useful).

I was thinking about the following structure:

4S = cuebid, asks partner to cuebid if possible.
4NT = RKC.
5C = natural, forward going but NF.
5D = naturalish slam try, help needed in diamonds.
5H = missing a spade control.

With the hand above we could bid 5D, and partner would know that QJx of diamonds is useful. Hey, 6D might be the best spot and we might still get there.

I agree with Fluffy that it doesn't make sense to define the bids for the exact auction, but these definitions are consistent with my general style and apply in similar auctions too.

Consider for example the auction

2C - 2D (GF)
2H - 2S (forced, Kokish)
3S - 4H
??

Opener has shown a strong hand with hearts and spades, responder has some values but not much/ I would play:

4S = 5-6 in the majors, forcing.
4NT = RKC (maybe it doesn't make sense here)
5C/5D = naturalish slam try, help appreciated here.
5H = slam try, cards in hearts and spades are useful as well as side aces. The rest is probably not.

I like natural slam tries in general. Show your shape, and let partner decide if he likes his values. So if you are used to that, thats a great use for the 5D call....

[Cascade]

We would just use:

4♠ kickback
4NT spade cue
5♣ NF slam try 5-6+
5♦ diamond cue - denies a spade cue
5♥ invitational not asking for anything specific

[Impact]

I am with Wayne (and the obvious inference is that cards like extra length in H and/or C lower Honours are the sort of thing that might suggest a raise to 6H over 5H).



regards

[kenrexford]

This is probably a situation where giving room makes the most sense.

So, I suppose that ideally 4♠ should be sort of like LTTC, allowing Responder to bid values (4NT being spade values). This covers a lot of territory.

5♣ seems to make sense as a tertiary-control ask, something like AKxxx, suggesting the value of Qx or a doubleton with extra hearts.

4NT RKCB.

5♦ probably a double-hole problem (Axx).

5♥ general punt.

[FrancesHinden]

"Best" has two possible interpretations - theoretically best with no memory constraints, and practically best. There's also the question of whether you want to do different things depending on partner's call. For example, I play (2S) - 4C - (P) - 4D as a good 4H bid (or a hand that can take care of itself some other way); should a 4S continuation over that be the same as a 4S continuation over a 4H bid which doesn't show values?

It also depends on style. On the hand you had the problem on - 0535 - I would have made a take-out double. In general I would tend to double on 5530s when I consider them playable in all three strains (this is consistent with my playing 4D as artificial in the above auction). So I wouldn't have exactly your problem, and so my feeling of the 'best' continuations is probably different from yours.

Anyway, all I can say here is what I play and why I play it, which is not quite the same as saying I think it's best...

4S = spade control, slam try
4NT = RKCB {I think this is probably better played as a general slam try without a spade control, but we've agreed in general not to play this when a major suit is agreed}
5C = extra values, likely 5-6 or 5-7, non-forcing but slam interest

these all seem pretty obvious unless you want to get very clever, leaving 5D and 5H. For me
5H = general slam try, good hearts, do you like your hand? {We almost never play these bids as specifically asking for a spade control as the general try type hand comes up more often}

To me that leaves 5D as a diamond cue, certainly implying no first round spade control, and saying "don't worry about the 4th suit, just look at your heart, club and possibly spade cards".

I would expect that a hand worth making a slam try opposite nothing will usually have at least one of the side suits controlled, and will often have second round control in the other.

There's also a suit order problem, in which the meaning of the bids might (theoretically) be best to vary by suit order. On your sample auction it's hard to find a use for the 5D bid, but if you held, say,

x
AKQxxx
AQ109x
A

you would like to bid 5C after (2S) - 4D - 4H to see if partner has anything nice to say about his diamond suit.