[ruotal]

Hi all !

We are willing to apply kickback to ask for keys cards.
I know that when a suit has been agreed, 4♦ is kickback for clubs ETC.

Someone could explain me what are the conditions for apllying that.

For exemple :
1NT 2♦ JACOBY
2♥ 3♦ SLAM TRY
4♦ ACCEPTATION OF SLAM TRY
Is 4♥ a kickback for diamonds ?

Thank you

andré

[blackshoe]

Depends on agreement. In this case, though, logically since partner has accepted my slam try, 4♥ must be forcing. So why not Kickback for diamonds? I note you also have 4♠ available as kickback for hearts.

If 4♥ might be a place to play - IOW not forcing - then it should not be Kickback.

[CSGibson]

I don't know about kickback, but I find that simply using a freely bid 4 of the minor as key card for that minor works well, at least if you have clear definitions as to when it is and is not "minorwood". I played a hand today (below) where that was instrumental in getting us to 7 diamonds.

---

The bidding started with 1♦ in the south, and progressed

1♦-2♦*-(2♥)-2♠-3♣-4♦**-4♥-5♣***-5♠-7♦****

*inverted
**3014 for diamonds
***asking for specific kings
****what the hell, why not.

[kenrexford]

If you are playing Kickback, then 4♥ is RKCB for diamonds.

If you are playing something different, then something different is RKCB for diamonds.

[mike777]

ruotal, on Sep 12 2007, 12:48 PM, said:

Hi all !

We are willing to apply kickback to ask for keys cards.
I know that when a suit has been agreed, 4♦ is kickback for clubs ETC.

Someone could explain me what are the conditions for apllying that.

For exemple :
                        1NT          2♦  JACOBY       
                        2♥        3♦  SLAM TRY
                        4♦                  ACCEPTATION OF SLAM TRY
Is 4♥ a kickback for diamonds ?

Thank you

andré

I play kickback all the time.

In a word yes.....4h here is kickback for D 100%

btw partner could have cued over 3d in a new suit(non h) to make a d slam also....Again 4h by anyone would still be kickback for d 100%.

The only way partner can agree hearts over 3d on this auction is by bidding 3H, period.

[mike777]

I love playing kickback but it is a very complicated convention. Expect to have many errors at first.

You need to discuss many things but two big issues are:
what does 4nt mean when not in response to kickback?

How do you play kickback when two touching suits have been naturally bid:
c and d
or

d and h

or

h and s

You should really write out some rules.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Sep 13 2007, 04:52 PM, said:

ruotal, on Sep 12 2007, 12:48 PM, said:

For exemple :
                         1NT          2♦   JACOBY        
                         2♥        3♦   SLAM TRY
                         4♦                   ACCEPTATION OF SLAM TRY
Is 4♥ a kickback for diamonds ?

Thank you

andré

I play kickback all the time.

In a word yes.....4h here is kickback for D 100%

btw partner could have cued over 3d in a new suit(non h) to make a d slam also....Again 4h by anyone would still be kickback for d 100%.

The only way partner can agree hearts over 3d on this auction is by bidding 3H, period.

The proposition that a jump to 4♥ over 3♦ is kickback in diamonds is far from normal, and I would strongly advise against using it that way without discussion.

Let me back up a moment: the sequence was given to us as 3♦ being a slam try, and that itself is very unusual. I take it that the OP feels that offering opener a choice between 4♥, 5♦ or 3N is simply a waste of time. Most would disagree.

That may influence the utility of 4♥ as kickback, but I doubt it.

Returning to the main theme: it will often be critical for opener to be able to return to hearts while concurrently informing responder of his degree of slam enthusiasm. Most accomplish this by bidding 3♥ on good hands and 4♥ on bad hands, altho one can make an argument for reversing this, and some may.

Using 4♥ as kickback not only makes this distinction impossible to draw, but compounds the problem by having the limited hand ask for keycards when, almost without fail, the answer leaves opener guessing!

Put another way, I know I am not alone in the belief that a hand that opens 1N cannot ask for Aces. There are better uses for any bid that might be used for that purpose.

Even when we can find out that we hold all the keycards, just how the heck do we count tricks?

Let opener describe his hand, and let responder take control. Overuse of keycard always suggests to me a lack of confidence/experience in cooperative bidding.

[jdonn]

mike777, on Sep 13 2007, 05:05 PM, said:

I love playing kickback but it is a very complicated convention. Expect to have many errors at first.

Expect many errors? Sign me up!

[kenrexford]

On the greater scheme, since we have started in that direction. I agree with much that Mikeh has suggested, and I would add some thoughts.

It appears that 4♦ agreed diamonds but denied ability to make a 3♠ or 4♣ cuebid. You have not specified the cuebidding style, which seems particularly relevant in determining what 4♦ shows and what 4♥ after 4♦ should show.

It seems, however, that 4♦ must be a commitment bid, committing the contract to a diamond contract, if 3♦ is slammish. That seems rather critical in making any sense of any further auctions. If you had been playing that the cheapest out-of-focus major is RKCB for the agreed minor, then 4♠ would be RKCB, freeing 4♥ to show a very minimal slam try with a semi-solid heart suit playable opposite Hx, a plausible escape, or something like that. But, you are not, so 4♥ must be Kickback.

As to the rule requiring strict 3♥ whenever you have heart support. The idea of bidding 4♥ with extras gives me the willies, so I'm disregarding that idea. The idea of 4♥ showing a "minimum" has some merit, but only if the definition of a "minimum" makes sense, and it should be tight, IMO. That definition will give more definition to non-4♥ auctions and may help increase your ability to handle these auctions. Of course, again the cuebidding style is unknown, such that a proposal for a meaning to 4♥ is difficult at best. Saving that call as leaping opener-asking Kickback is way down on my llist of good ideas, next to Gerber.

One additional consideration is when more options above the minor are available. For example, if Responder had spades and diamonds, 4♥ by Opener, a jump that deprives us of space and deprives Responder of Kickback, should mean something. If the suits are clubs and hearts, 4♦ should mean something. If the suits are clubs and spades, both 4♦ and 4♥ should mean something (4♦ perhaps being flexible, as a 4♥ LTTC call would be available).

Defining these calls may be too much work for the partnership, but maybe not. For me, these would be Empathetic Splinters, showing no wasted value in the jump-to suit and five key cards for partner. That's a big hand, and maybe a different meaning makes more sense, but my default would force that understanding until discussed. You may have a different one, but whatever you pick will help define alternative auctions.

It is even plausible to define calls like 4♠, 4NT, 5♣, and 5♦, probably as very specific holdings, to further define the calls below game. I mean, if 3♦ is a slam try, then why shouldn't Opener force the mere five-level, a contract one will reach anyway if he has a maximum and acceptance values and enough keys, to show specific honor combinations and thereby to even further define non-jump options? Heck, even 5♥ makes sense, if hearts will be agreed.

Usually, such leaps would seem like a strange action, but the auction start suggests otherwise, when Opener is limited and known to be balanced and expected to just answer questions. If, for instance, 5♥ after 3♦ showed KQKQ in the reds, with the Ace-King of spades and nothing more, 4333, for instance, how could that hurt? Bwing able to do that would mean that any other auction denied those six cards and that pattern. That's a silly example, but you probably get my drift.

The definitional jumps make sense because Opener cannot have any other hand type justifying a jump like that.

[mike777]

I assume 2h over 2d has limited the hand somewhat, no super accept.
I agree 4h over 3d would be very unusual, in fact I think it has never come up but I think to keep things simple 4h over 3d would be kickback. In any event get your basic auctions down. As I said 4h over 3d has never come up for me but I would take it as kickback for d. Keep in mind 2h over 2d has limited your hand already to some degree(denies 4h for me).

That means all heart accepts over 3d must start with 3h(only 3 card support) for me.

In any case play what you wish, just discuss it and focus on the most frequent problems first. As I said I think kickback is one of the most confusing conventions out there, expect errors and confusion when you first start playing it.

[blackshoe]

Kickback is only confusing if you follow the usual procedure for adding conventions to your partnership's card: "Let's play Kickback." "How does that work?" "Instead of bidding 4NT to ask for keycards, you bid the suit above the trump suit - except spades, of course, that's still 4NT." "Uh, okay."

There are plenty of writers who have discussed the pitfalls of this convention - and plenty of users (or former users) of it who could discuss them. If you fail to do your homework, that's not the convention's fault, it's yours.