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Garbage or not?

Poll: Pard opens a 15-17 NT (36 member(s) have cast votes)

Pard opens a 15-17 NT

  1. Pass (19 votes [52.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.78%

  2. 2C (17 votes [47.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.22%

  3. Other (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 14:46

IMPs, NV

♠Txxx ♥KQxx ♦x ♣xxxx

Pard opens a 15-17 NT. Your call.

Garbage Stayman is available by the way.
"Phil" on BBO
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#2 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 15:22

pclayton, on Sep 2 2007, 10:46 PM, said:

IMPs, NV

♠Txxx ♥KQxx ♦x ♣xxxx

Pard opens a 15-17 NT. Your call.

Garbage Stayman is available by the way.

Normally I'd pass with this hand. Mainly because we have the agreement that with 3-3 in the majors the 1NT-opener pulls to 2♠ over 2♣-2♦-2♥. But it's close, and I can definitely stomach garbage Stayman on this hand.
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#3 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 15:26

Easy pass.

Peter
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#4 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 15:45

I stayman. I have a chance to have done the right thing instantly (hearing a major) and the moysian might be ok by "reversing the dummy" in the sense of taking as many ruffs as I can with the long trump hand.
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#5 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 16:33

I'd go for it, added benefit is that I might get to declare the hand.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#6 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 16:45

2c I do have ruffing value.
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#7 User is offline   BebopKid 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 17:23

If partner bids 2D, what is your rebid? (people have telling me to have a rebid ready)

Will partner expect you to have 8+ points?

xxx
xxx
xx
xxxx

would be an awful shape for p to have
♦♦♦♦♦♦

BebopKid (Bryan Lee Williams)

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♦♦♦♦♦♦
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#8 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 17:48

BebopKid, on Sep 2 2007, 03:23 PM, said:

If partner bids 2D, what is your rebid? (people have telling me to have a rebid ready)

Will partner expect you to have 8+ points?

xxx
xxx
xx
xxxx

would be an awful shape for p to have

ur right a 3324 would be too horrible to think about. :)
"Phil" on BBO
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#9 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 18:11

On the other hand, when you pass 1NT and they take the first gazillion diamond tricks, partner can always throw in his hand with that shape.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#10 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 18:45

I'd pass
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#11 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 20:14

BebopKid, on Sep 2 2007, 03:23 PM, said:

If partner bids 2D, what is your rebid? (people have telling me to have a rebid ready)

pclayton said:

Garbage Stayman is available by the way.


I.e. 2♥ and partner won't expect 8 pts.
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#12 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 20:21

Why would you play Garbage Stayman if you do not bid Garbage Stayman with a Garbage Stayman hand?

The more interesting question, IMO, is whether the partnership can reach 3♣. Two possible ways seem plausible.

First, you simply bid 2♣, hear 2♦, bid 2♥, hear 2♠, and bid 3♣. Worst case, you play 3♣ opposite 2326, of course. So, perhaps not so good.

Better might be that you bid 2♣, partner bids 2♦, you bid 2♥, and partner is allowed to bid 2NT when 2245/3235/3226/2236. This would be the "right" bid IF Garbage Stayman is reserved for unbalanced hands without a five-card major or, if a 5-card major, then 3+ clubs (if correct 2♦ to 2♥).

All in all, I'm not so sure the latter works either, but it intrigues me.
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#13 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2007-September-02, 21:08

The latter works rather badly when responder is 5-5 in the majors, which I would call the "garbage stayman hand". I'd never get to 3C.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#14 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-September-03, 00:06

I always pass with this hand
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#15 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2007-September-03, 00:16

I would guess that the difference in the 2 poll choices comes down to how people play Garbage Stayman. If the auction goes

1N-2♣-2♦-2♥

is opener expected to pass since responder showed a 4♠5♥+ hand checking for a 4-4 fit (in which case pass is basically forced)? If so, it's too risky to try it with 4414 shape since you'll have to guess the major to correct 2♦ to and might play a 4-2 fit instead of a 4-3 fit (neither of which sounds great to me, frankly).

Alternatively, some play that a 2♥ correction shows equal length in the majors and opener should take a length preference. if you play this way, then I guess 4414 is an ok shape if you're willing to play the 4-3 fit.
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#16 User is offline   ulven 

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Posted 2007-September-03, 00:18

Clear 2C for me, playing Garbage Stayman.
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#17 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2007-September-03, 01:32

I would bid 2♣ with a singleton.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#18 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2007-September-03, 02:57

Clear pass for me, whatever methods you play...
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#19 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2007-September-03, 03:38

Free, on Sep 3 2007, 10:57 AM, said:

Clear pass for me, whatever methods you play...

Unless 2♣ shows this hand ....
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#20 User is offline   SoTired 

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Posted 2007-September-03, 07:11

Clear 2C for me. I'll risk ending in a poorer 4-3 contract for a chance to escape 1N into a 4-4 major fit.

BTW, "Garbage Stayman" defines 1N-2C-2D-2H = weak with 4-4 or better in the majors. This is why "Garbage Stayman" is a convention rather than a convenience for responder when responder holds a 4450 hand and will pass any opener's rebid.

If playing Garbage Stayman and responder has the 5♥/4♠ invitational hand, responder bids 2D followed by 2S, but with the 5♠/4♥ invitational hand, responder bids 2C followed by 2S over 2D.

2N by opener over 2H is NOT ALLOWED. Responder could be xxxxx xxxxx x xx. Opener must pass or correct to 2S with equal or better spades. PERIOD.
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